Andy Smith 00:00 
A quick disclaimer before we begin, the PEMF podcast does not contain any medical advice and the content provided is for informational purposes only. If you have any health concerns, please visit a healthcare professional.

Welcome back to another episode of the PEMF podcast.

Joshua Roberts 00:20 
And today we're going to be talking about slew rate. Everyone talks about intensity when it comes to PEMF, everyone talks about frequency, but not many people talk about waveform and slew rate.

Andy Smith 00:28 
Yes, today we're going to be diving into all the most misunderstood areas of PEMF and explaining why two devices with exactly the same intensity and frequency can behave completely different. We've had some of the industry leading experts on the podcast talking about slew rate and it can get really, really technical and quite confusing. So the intention of this episode is to really drill down to the basics of slew rate and make it as understandable as we possibly can for the audience.

Joshua Roberts 00:56 
Yeah those episodes can get really technical so hopefully in this one we'll break it down much more simply and hopefully it'll be a lot more understandable. But we're going to mention waveform quite a few times in this episode so it might be nice just to kind of explain what waveform is first before we kind of go more into slew rate.

Andy Smith 01:11 
Yeah, sure. So waveform is simply the shape of a pulse. So if you can imagine, there are waveforms such as sine, square wave, triangle, sawtooth, and it pretty much is what it looks like. So I'll break it down for you. A square wave will essentially just be a square if you draw it in the air. A sine wave is like a s-shape laying down, so it will be like a continuous s-shape along the complete wave. You've got triangle, which essentially is just triangles one after the other, and then a sawtooth is slightly different to a triangle wave because it's either got a fast rise time and a slower decline, or it's got a slower incline and a fast decline. So it changes a little bit and it almost looks like the edge of a saw.

Joshua Roberts 02:00 
Yeah, and before we kind of get into why slew rate matters and kind of why it's important, what actually is slew rate for anyone who might not have heard about it?

Andy Smith 02:08 
Yes we'll expand on this a lot more later on the episode but as basic as i can possibly say the slew rate is effectively the acceleration of the way for me so it's how quickly you get to the target speed or the target. Yeah so you're trying to achieve so if we break this down as a bit of a car analogy this is how is broken down to me the first time i learn about slew rate and it's really important and a great way to understand so. If we understand if we have a car two cars say for example that both reach the speed of sixty miles an hour. One of those cars gets to sixty miles an hour in thirty seconds and then it. Reduces its speed the next thirty seconds the second car gets to it in two seconds and then reduces the speed in two seconds. You can imagine sitting in the car that gets there in thirty seconds pretty much your body's not gonna move you're gonna be able to have a conversation and you're almost not gonna notice that car accelerating and slowing down. However in the fast car that's good doing two seconds up to sixty miles an hour and then two seconds to slow down you can jolt backwards and jolt forwards and you can imagine the looks on your face during that car journey. It's gonna be a completely different experience and that's essentially what slew rate is so it's the speed in which you get to the top of the waveform and then the speed in which you reduce that waveform as well. Effectively that's what we want to do to the cells we want to be able to reduce the reaction from the cells and not just allow them to ignore what's happening in the background.

Joshua Roberts 03:46 
Yeah, no, exactly. And we always talk about intensity being measured in Gauss and frequency being measured in Hertz. How would you see the slew rate being measured?

Andy Smith 03:55 
So we often see this measured in Tesla per second or Gauss per second and the most common is Tesla per second and that will give you a lower reading and it's a lot easier to compare. Gauss per second is generally a lot higher number and we don't see that in the industry as much. Maybe in a device that has a pretty poor performance when it comes to slew rate, might use Gauss per second but the industry standard is T slash S, Tesla per second.

Joshua Roberts 04:24 
Yeah, exactly. And you kind of spoke a minute ago about having how the slew rate has a little bit of an effect on the cell. So why should anyone actually kind of care about slew rate or kind of how quick the waveform changes? Why does it actually matter?

Andy Smith 04:37 
Okay yeah so getting a little bit technical here, PEMF works through electro-magnetic induction. Faraday showed that changing magnetic fields induce electrical currents into nearby conductors. So if you imagine that the PEMF device is the changing magnetic field and we are the conductors. So talking about slew rate, if you have a faster change that's going to equal a much stronger induction, slew rate directly influences how efficiently microcurrents are induced into the tissues. So effectively, breaking that down, simple terms, faster slew rate, the more effect it's going to have on all the cells in the body.

Joshua Roberts 05:19 
Yeah, exactly. And Faraday's law is kind of one of the most foundational kind of physics laws when it comes to PEMF, as you say, without kind of slew rate or without kind of the changing magnetic field, there's no current to be induced into the body. And, and we'll kind of go into that a little bit more later on in the episode, but, and we kind of always like to kind of cover a little bit of research on this episode on these episodes. Is there kind of any research in kind of PEMF and slew rate at all?

Andy Smith 05:43 
Yes, anyone that listens to this podcast quite frequently and anyone that's looked at any advertisement towards PEMF therapy, a lot of the time it's referenced with NASA studies and the links of PEMF therapy at NASA. So when it comes to slew rate, this is quite important as well, because the original place that the research came from when it came to slew rate was the studies that Thomas J Goodwin and Bob Dennis at NASA, what they were looking at is they were comparing the static fields, sine waves, triangle waves, impulse waves and square waves, all different wave forms when it comes to PEMF therapy. And they were looking at the amount of neuronal stem cells that were created by the different signals in microgravity and weightlessness environments displayed by the more darker areas. And there's a graphic on screen now for people that are listening, but we'll try and explain what's happening. So when looking at the static fields and the sine fields they produced in this chart either no or very little response, the delta and triangle waves produced the modest responses and the square wave was one that produced the strongest cellular response.

Joshua Roberts 06:48 
And if anyone wants to learn anything more about kind of Bob Dennis and his work with Nassau we've done a whole episode kind of talking about that and actually our last episode was a part two with him where we kind of just spoke more generally about PEMF and all different specifications and everything like that it was a really interesting episode definitely worth going back to watch but as Andy just kind of explained with that when there was no kind of changing magnetic field there's no pulse and that means obviously then there's no induction and as I said earlier kind of Faraday's law then almost doesn't apply because there's no changing magnetic field and that kind of explains why there was no effect on the cells so if you ever wondered why PEMF is pulsed magnetic fields that is exactly why and but now kind of we've spoken about all the waveforms why does square wave have such a fast slew rate you kind of mentioned it a little bit earlier but yeah why does it have such such a fast slew rate

Andy Smith 07:40 
Yes the best way to describe this if i compare two different waves so to the very very opposite should i say and probably the furthest away from each other is a square wave and a sine wave so if you can imagine in your head and that the device is trying to create or draw on screen square so acceleration goes on as far as it possibly can go straight up i'm gonna stay on for a part for a period of time and then the deceleration of the wave will come straight back down again so it's almost painting a square wave on the screen. When we look at sine wave then basically you're painting in a shape so if you can imagine a slow acceleration you reach the top and then you slowly start to decelerate and that's the difference between square wave and a sine wave and why the slu ray on a square wave is so much faster so the acceleration time of the PEMF device or you know go back to the car analogy. That's where you can get square compared to your sine.

Joshua Roberts 08:43 
Yeah, exactly that. But we've spoken about the square wave before in other episodes, and we've kind of shown graphics of this on other episodes as well. I know we've had a few questions asked like, why isn't it literally like a perfect square? You've got up, you've got flat and down. Why isn't it when you kind of look at it on the oscilloscope? Why isn't it, yeah, a perfect square that you could imagine?

Andy Smith 09:03 
Yeah, so square wave is one of the most difficult ones to actually produce a square on an oscilloscope. The device itself is actually trying to paint a square wave. So it turns the magnetic field on and then it gets the top. It holds it for a slight time, which is your duty cycle, which is an only episode. And then it turns it off again. But you can never have an infinite slew rate. So you're never going to get this complete up and then a duty cycle and then down. So really when you look at it on an oscilloscope, it's almost going to look like a sawtooth because it's going to take a little bit of time to get to your highest intensity and then stay in there and then come down again. So that's why when we show or produce images of square waves, it's not exactly a square wave. But if you look at what the device is trying to achieve and trying to produce, it will look like a square wave. When you're trying to produce something like a sine wave or a sawtooth, it's much easier to produce that shape on an oscilloscope. So that's why when some people have asked us questions, you know, this device says it's square wave, but it doesn't look like a square wave when it's on an oscilloscope. And the oscilloscope is a way in which you measure a magnetic field and produce an image of it. So I hope that makes sense. And square wave is really one of the only ones that's very hard to produce the perfect square.

Joshua Roberts 10:31 
Yeah, exactly. As you said, you can't have an infinitely rising slew rate and you kind of end up with more of a sawtooth kind of shape, as you say. And we always talk about kind of intensity. And I know a lot of the time the kind of common misconception is you want to get the highest intensity you physically can. And people might be thinking now with slew rate, we're obviously saying you want to get a really high slew rate. Do you want the highest slew rate you can get?

Andy Smith 10:54 
Yeah, as with anything with PEMF, nothing is as straightforward as it seems and more is not always the solution. So, some bone to healing research actually found that moderate slew rates performed best and extremely high slew rates actually performed worse. So, there's a biological system that often has what we call a Goldilocks zone and it's a little bit like watering a plant. So, if you don't give enough plant, if you don't give water, enough water to a plant, sorry, you know, it will die. If you give too much water to a plant, it will drown. So, there's that section in the middle which is your Goldilocks zone and that's what we're trying to achieve with slew rate.

Joshua Roberts 11:34 
Yeah, we've mentioned this a little bit before in the past and the people call it in red light, like a biophasic dose curve and what is kind of the Goldilocks zone or the kind of curve optimal range for the slew rate for PEMF.

Andy Smith 11:47 
Yes, a lot of people try to work this out and to do research around the Goldilocks zone of a flu rate. Brian Myers has done a lot of this. We had an episode of Brian Myers. Actually, we've had three episodes for Brian Myers now. So please do go back and listen to those episodes if you want to take a really deep dive. But his research, he puts it between about 10 Tesla per second to 120 Tesla per second. So that's the Goldilocks zone. And what we found is that that is a very good range in which you can induce healing. So you can use healing in the cell. So you're looking for a localized product in which is where you tend to get higher slew rates and you want to target a certain area for an injury or something like that. That's your range you want to be sitting in between. But there's not enough studies to exist that say that this is the be all and end all, you know, where the research is at currently. But for my own research, when you're looking into full body mat systems, the slew rates are a lot lower and that's normal. So you tend to get PEMF mats with much lower than 10 Tesla per second. From what we found, you want to really be hitting at least two Tesla per second. So you want to really be in a range more of about three and above. And with a full body mat, what you're trying to achieve there is in in proving circulation, improving oxygen distribution around the body and creating an environment in the body to heal. Then you can put a localized device with a higher slew rate and that will induce the heating in that area. So. Again, it's not a straightforward kind of solution to this, but with a full body system, you want to be looking at a minimum of about two to three Tesla per second. And with a localized system, you want to be looking in that range of 10 Tesla per second to 120 Tesla per second.

Joshua Roberts 13:39 
And yeah, you kind of want, as Andy said, more of a kind of two to three range, but we, we've tested quite a few, uh, PEMF mats and we're hoping to test a lot more in the future. And, but the most common one that a lot of people have is kind of the multi therapy PEMF mats. What is the slew rate that we measured, uh, on kind of the most popular brands that that, and one that was distributed to over 300 companies.

Andy Smith 14:00 
Yes is a great question because and actually someone says me recently about these my therapy mats you know you know the companies will. Market them as p m f near infrared maps or something like that crystal gem things all these things and for me it's not a p m f math it's a multi therapy math and there's a good. Difference in different general differentiation between the two multi therapy man is something that produces multiple different therapy so they shouldn't really be called a p m f mad because it produces. Yes red lights all these different things but they do them to a very very low standard and this is exactly where this rate it's in. We tested a lot of these popular my therapy mats are on the market josh just mentioned there's you know one supplier in China that supplies over three hundred brands lot of big brands in the uk sending these mats. And we tested the slew rate on these and the highest we could find was zero point two tesla per second so not even one tesla per second. And again it kind of shows you that yes they do produce p m f and maybe they have to maybe four coils you're not getting a very good spread across the map. But also the technical abilities of those p m f are very very low standard so. Getting down at zero point two tesla per second not even one tesla it's not going to induce much response from the cells.

Joshua Roberts 15:27 
Yeah, I thought we'd important to throw that in because as you say, they're kind of the most popular mats on the market. And we've done a whole kind of deep dive episode on those. I believe it was episode 59. If you want to reel back and kind of listen to that. And we're talking about that. A lot of these mats don't actually list the slew rate. And I know a lot of other kind of mats on the market don't list the slew rate either. And how kind of does that change the buying decision when looking at buying a F mat, are you kind of fully informed really on the kind of specs of the device or how good it might be if it doesn't list kind of slew rate?

Andy Smith 16:01 
Yeah, it's a really good question and this is something we've been struggling with in the PEMF industry for so long and it's transparency when it comes to the technical ability of PEMF devices. Not all PEMF devices are created equal and it's the same in any industry, you know, same with sauna, same with red light therapy, you know, there's different technical abilities that make a device effective or not effective and transparency is one of the biggest things. So, for me, when looking at PEMF device, if the slew rate isn't put into their technical abilities, then probably the company either doesn't know what it is, they don't know how to measure it, they don't know the importance of flu rate when it comes to a PEMF device. And really for me, it's a huge red flag. The other thing is that if a company does have the slew rate produced on their technical ability, great, but ask them for their research, ask them for their test results. And they'll show you the workings out of how they got to that slew rate. So, it's something that you should always look at and something that you shouldn't always compare high intensity or intensities. Gauss has always been something that is more commonly featured on PEMF mats and it's not always about the power, it's not always about the top speed. So, if you look at a car and it has a top speed of 100 miles per hour, it might be a very, very heavy sluggish car. But it's going to take a very long time to get to 100 miles per hour. So, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's just as good as a Ferrari or a Lamborghini that also has 100 miles per hour as their top speed because they're going to get there much quicker and much more effectively. So, that's something that we're trying to change the narrative in the PEMF industry when it comes to comparing devices. Really, you should be looking at intensity, but also slew rate, also how many coils, all the different things that make up a good PEMF device. And actually, we just started working with a company in the US who is a test house for PEMF devices and this is really, really exciting for me. Because what we want to do and what we want to do with this company is create an industry standard so that every PEMF manufacturer has to send their PEMF device to this company for an official test result and report. Then any customers can ask that report, they can see how it compares across the board and it's not their own independent testing. So, this will create a bit of an industry standard where people will be able to compare, contrast, look at PEMF devices and know what they're paying for. So, hopefully when we got a bit further down the line with this test house and when we've actually created this standard, we'll get them on the podcast. We'll get them to explain how it's going to work and then we'll create this level playing field for everybody in the PEMF industry.

Joshua Roberts 18:54 
Yeah, exactly. And that episode hopefully will be coming in the next few months. So do make sure to follow, subscribe, turn on notifications so you don't miss that one. But we kind of spoke a little bit about intensity there. There is kind of another kind of layer almost here with slew rate related to the intensity. So how does intensity affect slew rate or does it even have an effect on slew rate?

Andy Smith 19:15 
Yes, this is another massive differentiation between slurry and a good device and intensity because intensity has a huge effect on slurry because. If we look at the lower what we call the lower intensity devices so the lower intensity devices are probably any device from hundred gals fifty gals ten gals sometimes even one gals. There you lower you know lower intensity devices and when it comes to those devices slurry is far more important because slurry again is how it affects the cells and if you have a lower intensity smaller magnetic field those he. Parts of the puzzle like slurry become a lot more effective when you talk about high intensity so we're comparing a device that goes up to twenty thousand gals instead of fifty us. Then intensity kind of takes over and it takes the lead and it becomes a more important part of the puzzle when we're looking at PEMF devices because a high intensity like twenty thousand gals you're never gonna have a high slurry and actually the devices that we produce the super high intensity. All into the sine wave which you know we spoke about earlier in this episode saying that the less effective on sales but at that intensity it becomes more about the induction of the power than anything else so they're the devices where you can actually feel pulsing and and they tend to be found in more of a professional setting than home setting. So don't get too lost in the in terms of slurry when it comes to those super high intensity devices we've mentioned it before we've done a lot of episodes on intensity and you should listen to those episodes to talk to find out the difference between a low and high intensity device. But they're very very different animals that almost different technology completely so people often say to me what's better a low intensity or a high intensity device. Actually the answer is both if you can have access to both devices maybe you want to put a low intensity at home you want to put high intensity in a professional setting and use that less frequently that's the golden ticket to the best results when it comes to PEMF therapy. So kind of summarizing that when it comes to slurry it's a lot more important when you're in the lower intensity range look for devices that have a complete range and spread of intensity frequencies. Many different coils across the map and slurry to put together you know the best possible device you can find and when it comes to intensity a lot of the time the intensity kind of takes over from most of other things you just want to find somewhere that's offering high intensity in a professional setting that you can get access to and use less frequently.

Joshua Roberts 22:01 
Yeah, we've done quite a few episodes on higher versus low intensity. A great one is one that we actually did with Brian Myers. I think it was our second part with him. Really good. We had spoke for about an hour, kind of compared everything front to back. So if you really want a kind of complete overview on that, definitely one to go back to. So some people might be listening now and they're thinking, so you're telling me slew rate is all about the induction and without induction, there is no kind of transfer of energy between you and the PEMF map. So is slew rate the only thing we should look for when it comes to PEMF device? If it's got a good slew rate, does nothing else really matter?

Andy Smith 22:37 
Yeah, great question again, you know, I kind of just wrapped it up in the last question in terms of slurry is not your only be on end or intensity is not your only be on end or number of coils coil design all these things actually you want a combination of all of it and having a good combination of all of it and one that works really well is why p emf is so difficult to get right and that's why you know when you get these multi therapy mats and p emf is just a box ticking activity when they've just put a small coil in there and post it through a certain time sometimes they even post electricity through the wall it's got to be done correctly and that's why we always say to people when they're looking for p emf devices to look for specific p emf only products so at the moment we found it very difficult to find devices that combine therapies that do them effectively because you know you want to find a device that's been in the industry for a long time that's focused on a coil design that's put a lot of research into what their slurry is most effective what intensity gives the best rates so it really is a spread of all of it and people might be thinking all right now i'm even more confused because where's this Goldilocks amount of gauss and slurry and all that sort of thing simply the proof is always in the pudding you know finding advice that you can trial for 30 days you know you're always going to be able to actually get the results within those 30 days so just try it but look for devices that focus on p emf because you know that that company is really trying to nail down all the right parameters of a p emf device and not try and just put loads of different therapies in into one system and see if a device mentions its slurry slurry is a really good indicator of whether the device or the company has done a lot of testing and whether they have really looked into how the device is designed if they don't know what the slew rate is that they don't know how to measure it. How much work are they really put into producing a p emf device you know when we talk about celebrate i mention it quite a few times you know it took a six years to bring that product market we didn't just send a logo to some manufacturing china and get them to produce something that we have no idea how it works and how it induces p emf therapy so look for people companies that are well established that have all their statistics if you want if they if you ask for their testing they'll send that to you and they know exactly what their slew rate is.

Joshua Roberts 25:23 
Yeah, as you say, there's a lot of different kind of pieces to the puzzle when it comes to PEMF, and there's not kind of one statistic that's better than all of them. You kind of need a even balance of everything. But some people might go away now, kind of be looking for a PEMF device, and might look for the slew rate, and they're probably going to struggle. You know, you kind of just mentioned it there, but why might they struggle? And why might they not be able to find the slew rate on almost all, if not the majority of PEMF devices?

Andy Smith 25:52 
Yes, a good question because we've gone through it. We found that it's very, very difficult to measure gouts. It's even more difficult to measure slew rate. So, you know, we've had to spend thousands and thousands of pounds ourselves on our own testing equipment to be able to produce these numbers for our audience and to, and to understand exactly what our devices are producing. Same as some of the other big names in the PEMF industry, if they give you these, you know, these figures, these stats, then they've done the same. They've either got the test equipment themselves, or they've sent it to a test house that has the test equipment and it's very difficult to measure. So it could be why a manufacturer just doesn't put it on their website because they haven't done the testing, they just don't know, or they've done the testing and their slew rate, their intensity isn't stacked after what it should be. So that's when we find, you know, some people might say it's an industry trade secret or something, which, you know, I hate that, especially in the supplement industry, when people say it's a trade secret, how do you know what you're putting into your body? It's exactly the same with PEMF therapy. So just make sure the companies are open and honest as they can be with everything on the website where you can see it and available to you if you ask for it.

Joshua Roberts 27:09 
Yeah. And I know I found the same thing when I've been creating our comparison table, which is on the new med website, which is linked below. A lot of the time when you look through these products, they don't have the slew rate reference. They don't have the intensity reference and it makes it really hard to actually compare the devices, which is kind of why we created the comparison table. And sometimes even when you do contact them and they don't tell you, or as you say, they say it's priority information or, um, they simply just don't know. And they'll send you some random specs, sort of like the Watts that it gives out or something like that. Um, but anyway, now we're kind of coming to the end of this episode. A lot of people might be thinking, well, I've seen loads of devices that have sine wave, um, you're saying that square wave is the best way for them. Cause it has the best slew rate and has, uh, the fastest rise time. So why aren't literally all PEMF devices using a square wave?

Andy Smith 28:01 
Yeah, I mean, if it was up to me, every device in the market would be a square wave. You know, when we design Celerate, we went for a square wave and it took us a long time to get to that. And what I learned along the road trying to produce a square wave is that there are a lot of engineering limitations. Like it's very difficult to get a very fast rise time. And we went through about 10 different coil designs, you know, 10 different ways of producing the different frequencies to get to what we could achieve the fastest Celerate and the fastest square wave. So it's very sophisticated electronics to get there. Some different manufacturers prioritize different design philosophies. So, you know, just because we say that intensity, Celerate and these sorts of things are most important. That's not to say that another manufacturer has done their own research and thinks that something else is more important. So they might be, you know, prioritizing just the portability of a device or, you know, the cost of a device, you know, to try and appeal to, you know, a more cost effective market, all these different things. So there's a number of reasons why not all manufacturers go down the square root, the square wave root. And as I mentioned before, when it comes to super high intensity devices, it's, you know, going to be almost impossible to get a square wave out of that much intensity. So again, why people would use something different.

Joshua Roberts 29:28 
Yeah, exactly. There's a whole different load of reasons why people might choose a different way to square wave. But as I say, a lot of people in the industry believe a square wave, square wave is the best kind of one. Obviously we've had Brian Myers who believes that Bob Dennis, and obviously there's quite a few other people in the industry as well who think the same. Um, but now kind of just to wrap it up, really, if someone is now taking in this information, hopefully it was easy to understand, and we kind of, yeah, maybe as basic as we could, what is one thing that maybe they should take away from this.

Andy Smith 29:58 
Yes, the best takeaways from this episode really is that PEMF is not just about gouts. We need to change that narrative because a lot of PEMF devices are just comparing gouts and a lot of our customers will just compare gouts. So they'll come to us and say, oh, that only goes to 50 Gauss. Must mean it's a bad device. No, absolutely not. It's not always about gouts. It's a combination of the, of all of the different features within a PEMF. So, you know, the body doesn't respond to magnetic fields sitting still. And that's where we're talking about PEMFs and EMF. It responds to the changing magnetic fields. So slew rate is one of the best ways of describing how effectively that change is delivered. And, you know, the part of PEMF that depends on how much actually is used by the body is the slew rate. And so, you know, wrapping that all up, a good PEMF design or a good PEMF device is a combination of intensity, frequency, waveform, coil design, and slew rate. When it comes to the technical side, and then obviously, as I mentioned in this episode, or the podcast quite frequently, you also want a device that's easy to use, that's nice and portable, that fits into your life. Cause you could have the most technically able PEMF device if it's very difficult to use and it's stuck to the wall socket or something. You're not maybe going to use it as much as you would want to. So wrapping all that up together, find a good PEMF device that ticks all those boxes and from a reputable PEMF company.

Joshua Roberts 31:28 
And yeah, exactly that no matter how good a PDF device is technically, if you aren't going to use it or you can't use it consistently, none of that really matters, as we've kind of labored the point in all of our other kind of research based episodes. Always the most positive studies and the studies are the best outcomes. Always had someone using a device regularly over a longer period of time. It was never a kind of a one and done style therapy. But I hope you've enjoyed this episode. Hopefully it was easy to understand and we broke it down as simply as we could. We changed the format a little bit to how we normally do for these episodes. So I hope you enjoyed that as well. Hopefully it was a little bit more flowing than sometimes they can be in the past. If you did enjoy, please do make sure to like, subscribe, follow us on the streaming platforms, leave us a 5 star review. It really does just help us make more and more of these episodes and ensures you never miss one of these episodes in the future.

Andy Smith 32:21 
And just for a close outs episode, I just want to label the point that Josh said, we put a lot of time and effort into these episodes and there's only a very, very small amount of our listeners that actually follow or subscribe to these. We can't get great guests on. We can't encourage people on that. You know, if we have a small platform, it's growing, we are growing. We thank everybody that has already liked and subscribe this platform, but please do it. It only takes a couple of seconds, way smaller than how much effort goes into making these episodes. So, you know, if I can do my one thing today and get you to like and subscribe onto our platforms, please do. It really means a lot to us and we could put more time into these. We can get more great guests on and we'll see you again soon.