Sunlighten Ad 00:00 
Light plays a huge role in how we feel from our energy and mood to how well our bodies recover. And if your goal is longevity then supporting detox pathways, circulation and nervous system regulation is key. For more than 25 years Sunlighten has been at the forefront of infrared light therapy, developing saunas that deliver safe, restorative heat and light shown to support detoxification, cardiovascular health, recovery, sleep and overall resilience. What really sets them apart is their patented technology. Pulse IQ is the world's only intelligent infrared platform that delivers red light plus near, mid and far infrared wavelengths all separately for greater absorption and more personalized wellness programs. This isn't about chasing wellness trends, Sunlighten saunas are trusted worldwide, delivering more than 14 million sauna sessions annually to over 200,000 customers and supported by more than 200 health and wellness experts alongside an independent scientific advisory board. If you're looking to build a simple consistent daily ritual that supports your long-term health it's definitely worth exploring. Visit sunlighten.com/PEMFPOD and use the code PEMFPOD when acquiring and receive an additional £200 off the latest promotional pricing.

Visit Sunlighten: www.sunlighten.com/PEMFPOD

Andy Smith 01:13 
A quick disclaimer before we begin, the PEMF podcast does not contain any medical advice and the content provided is for informational purposes only. If you have any health concerns, please visit a healthcare professional. Welcome back to the PEMF podcast. Today we're joined by Joie Risk, managing director of Sunlighten across Europe, the Middle East and Africa. Sunlighten are one of, if not the biggest name in the infrared sauna space. Joie, welcome to the podcast.

Joie Risk 01:46 
Thank you very much.

Andy Smith 01:47 
In today's episode, we're going to be diving deep into the world of infrared sauna, covering what infrared actually is, how it differs from traditional sauna, why so many athletes and high performers are now using these technologies and the effects infrared sauna can have on stress, relaxation, recovery, cardiovascular health, and overall wellbeing. We'll also touch on contrast therapy, red light therapy, EMFs, and exposure of cheap infrared products online, and what actually separates a premium infrared sauna from the rest. But first we're going to hit a quick fire round. So what we do here is we just ask you a couple of questions, short, sharp answers, and then we'll take a deeper dive later on in the episode. Okay. Infrared sauna or traditional sauna?

Joie Risk 02:30 
Infrared.

Andy Smith 02:30 
Most misunderstood thing about an infrared sauna?

Joie Risk 02:35 
It's light and heat.

Andy Smith 02:37 
Three reasons people are using infrared sauna right now?

Joie Risk 02:40 
Exponential increase, improvement in sleep scores, recovery and detoxification.

Andy Smith 02:47 
Sauna before bed or first thing in the morning?

Joie Risk 02:49 
Whatever you feel like.

Andy Smith 02:52 
Cold first or heat first?

Joie Risk 02:54 
Heat first.

Andy Smith 02:56 
One thing people should look for when buying a sauna.

Joie Risk 02:59 
Getting the right wavelengths for what they need their sauna for and making sure that they can get that from the sauna that they buy.

Andy Smith 03:09 
Biggest raped flag in the infrared sauna industry right now?

Joie Risk 03:13 
Unsubstantiated marketing claims.

Andy Smith 03:16 
Most underrated benefit of infrared sauna?

Joie Risk 03:20 
Mental health

Andy Smith 03:21 
Most surprising person or athlete using infrared sauna?

Joie Risk 03:24 
Harry Styles.

Andy Smith 03:26 
Nice. Okay, let's start from the beginning in terms of infrared. So, anybody that's listening to this episode, they might not even know what infrared means. So, what does infrared mean and what is an infrared sauna?

Joie Risk 03:44 
Yeah, this is one of our most popular questions that we get. So really, what is an infrared sauna? It's a sauna which is delivered by light. So infrared is actually, the words mean below red. So what we're talking about is on the electromagnetic spectrum, a light, light wavelengths. So instead of delivering heat by way of hot coals or by convection, like an oven, sort of like how traditional saunas work, we're actually delivering far and mid infrared wavelengths, which happen to be hot, which are absorbed into the body and create various biochemical cascades of health benefits. So it's working very differently to a traditional sauna by delivering light and that light is being absorbed into the body.

Andy Smith 04:35 
And how does that differ from a traditional sauna? Because most people will understand saunas as extreme heats, you go in there, you know, traditional finish sauna, all these sorts of terms come out quite a lot. So how does infrared and traditional kind of compare?

Joie Risk 04:49 
Yeah, so a traditional sauna is very effective at delivering a very hot experience into a small room. So it's heating the air, essentially, and then that air is heating your body quite superficially. So with an infrared sauna, it is heating the body from the inside out. So you're actually absorbing heat and the wavelengths inside the body. So it's a very different mechanism, and it also feels different. So it's working with all of the benefits that you get from heat therapy, but also delivering all the benefits of light, which some people might know as photobiomodulation, or just light therapy.

Andy Smith 05:38 
One of the reasons, so I've got a traditional sauna at home. My brother who lives next door to me has got a infrared sauna. He's actually got sun lion. So one of the reasons I went for traditional.

Joie Risk 05:53 
Mm-hmm.

Andy Smith 05:54 
Well, first of all, I have access to both. So it kind of made sense to have one of each, but one of the benefits that I thought initially was, was time. Because I can't sit in my traditional sauna for longer than like 15 minutes. So in my head, I'm thinking, right, shorter, sharper sessions, same benefit. But what benefits are there in infrared saunas over traditional saunas? Why would someone go for that over the other?

Joie Risk 06:22 
Yeah, that's a really great question. So firstly, traditional saunas are great at delivering that really high heat. But what people don't realise is often they can't be in there for long enough in order to achieve that hormetic stressor that you're looking for and like driving heat shock proteins. So there's a misconception that it's hotter, but actually, you can't achieve any increase in heat shock proteins because the body isn't able to with stand that heat long enough. So firstly, from a health perspective, infrared saunas are able to deliver that heat. And I think there is a bit of a myth that they're not as hot. But that's definitely not the case. So we can mimic that traditional sauna feeling and intensity, I would say is probably a better word to use intensity. But you're getting all the benefits of heat, being able to then not just endure the sauna session, but in particular, you can enjoy it and stay long enough to get the the heat shock proteins and the the stress of the hormetic stressor. But then you're also achieving all the benefits of the light therapy. So really, you know, we can go into a whole host of different health benefits when it comes to infrared. But what it all boils down to is our ability to really achieve a mitochondrial discharge at recharge in the body and really affect the body from a systemic perspective. So that has the knock on effect of of we see benefits of sleep of detoxification of heart health, reduction in stress, all because we're able to get down to that cellular level.

Andy Smith 08:08 
Okay, and so for someone listening to this, can you just like describe a typical session of each like so, you know, because I know the feeling is very different, you know, and one of the things I just said now was actually the time was a benefit for me, but it was interesting what you said that actually you need a bit more time, 15 minutes, a lot of the time to get to those benefits, but can you just describe the feeling, the sensation, the typical session between the two?

Joie Risk 08:38 
So with a traditional sauna experience, you're walking in and you're immediately hit with that hot air and it's quite overwhelming. And so people normally are sitting down and they're not necessarily laying down because it's not a relaxing experience. They're trying to often breathe, their heart rate is raised and they're really just trying to get through as many minutes as possible. And for some people, it's contraindicated, you know, people with heart conditions and often, you know, it's not that advisable for people who have chronic stress or burnout to be in a traditional sauna because it's not going to be a part of their recovery. So as opposed to if you walk into an infrared sauna, what you're going to feel is, you know, that you've kind of walked into a space that feels like potentially the Bahamas or something. It is that feeling of being in the sun and our bodies, you know, we have this, you know, primal attraction to that sensation of the sun and the heat and it really is our bodies recognize it instantly. So it feels warming, it feels soothing. And then but towards the end of the, say, a 25 minute, 30 minute session, having had your heart rate raised for that period of time, people often then feel that, OK, this is now quite challenging and pushing to either get out. And so, yeah, it's but it's quite enjoyable for that period that they're in. And although there is a level of intensity, it doesn't feel unmanageable.

Andy Smith 10:20 
Yeah, no, I agree with that. And, you know, one of the things I notice when I get in my heat sauna is actually sting your nose when you're trying to breathe. You know, it gets so hot that it's actually quite painful on the respiratory system a lot of the time. And I get that, you know, I'm clock looking most of the time, you know, because it's like, well, when can I get out of this hell?

Joie Risk 10:40 
Yeah

Andy Smith 10:42 
So there is a bit of a debate online where people are saying because infrared is not kind of doesn't have the typical features of a sauna that we shouldn't even call it a sauna. What do you what do you think about that? Is there a defense in that aspect?

Joie Risk 11:00 
I love that people care enough about this to be debating online. I mean, I didn't have any idea, but this is great. Well, I think you have to go back to what is the definition of a sauna. So the definition is we're in a small room. It's a small room that is heated to a high temperature, uh, for the purposes of recreational use or therapeutic use. So if you go back to the definition, well, yes, by definition, an infrared sauna is still a sauna. It's just that it's so much more than that. And, you know, I like to call it sort of, it's a next generation in, in sauna, because now we know we understand fully the benefits of, of heat. And now where we actually are able to add, add, um, add light therapy to that. And, you know, there are also a number of practical reasons for having an infrared sauna as well. I don't think people realize, I mean, it's much cheaper to run. It's much easier to maintain. It's simpler to install. There are less risks with, you know, having a fire, you know, fire risks in your home. Um, and so it really can be very plug and play and accessible to a lot more people as well.

Andy Smith 12:11 
Okay. And another thing I've seen quite frequently in the, in the sunlight and sores is you're now introducing red light therapy. So we'll talk about near, mid and far infrared in a minute and the differences. But most people will understand the term red light therapy. Why is it important in the minute to start stacking the different wavelengths in terms of red light and the infrared saunas?

Joie Risk 12:36 
Yeah, well, every wavelength has different health benefits and, you know, in our quick fire, that's what I was alluding to. So a lot of people get confused, but what's really important is that depending on your goal for using light therapy or an infrared sauna, you need to understand what wavelengths are going to benefit me most. But what's really great about our new Pulse IQ sauna is that we have near, mid, far and red light, all targeted wavelengths. And then the user is able to personalise the blend of those wavelengths according to what they want to use it for or what they want to use it for now, as opposed to in the future or what different family members need it for. And so I think that that's really powerful because it's not a one size fits all situation. We had near infrared in our saunas for a very long time, which is actually an 880 nanometre wavelength, which is slightly deeper than red light. And we've introduced red light as it's become, you know, as our customers have asked for it. But it all comes down to what the user wants to really use the sauna for. Yeah.

Andy Smith 13:56 
And we talk about red light, near-infrared, mid-infrared, far-infrared. Just for simple, you know, idiots' guide to what does that mean and what's the difference.

Joie Risk 14:10 
Yeah. Okay. So if we go back to a science lesson, on the electromagnetic spectrum, you've got different wavelengths of light and you've got the visible spectrum and you've got the invisible spectrum. So far, mid and near come into the invisible spectrum. So they're not visible to the naked eye. So they are just different wavelengths of light. Far is the longest wavelength. That one is a heat generating wavelength of light. Now that one is specifically more associated with detoxification, benefits, circulation benefits. And then you have mid infrared, which is a shorter wavelength. And actually it's a really interesting wavelength because it's, you know, some of the only ones that can target mid infrared because of our patented technology. It's a very hot wavelength and it tends to be able to reduce down inflammation in the joints, muscle and tissue very well. And then you have near infrared, which a lot of people will be familiar with, with the LEDs technology that is out there today with the panels and masks, which is a very short wavelength. You need to be quite close to it to absorb it. And that has, essentially it's a bit of a wonder wavelength. It's absorbed into the mitochondria. It delivers energy right into our cells. And then you have red light, which is actually the shortest wavelength. It is 660 nanometers. It works very well for skin and other, you know, some more superficial benefits in the body. But that is the first visible wavelength. So the others are the infrared and then you have the red light.

Andy Smith 16:03 
It's interesting that you mentioned the mid-infrared, because actually before doing some research on this episode, it wasn't something I'd heard of. So that's what you're saying about, you know, you guys have tried to protect that and it's a good, effective version. I'm going to do a bit of a general, more broader question now. We do a bit of stalking online before these episodes. Oh no, what have you found? And something you mentioned before is like chronic stress being one of the biggest drivers these days in health. I know personally, whenever I do my whoopage or my glycan age and that sort of thing, stress is always in there for me, which is ruining my scores. What do you think is causing so much stress in modern times?

Joie Risk 16:49 
Well, firstly, I'd say get into your brother's sauna more often. But, well, I think that, you know, people would very much resonate with you and on this topic. I think it's very difficult to escape stress today. I think there's stress everywhere from, you know, our day-to-day lives work, there's more pressure than ever. And then, you know, you've got pollution in the air. There's a lot of stresses on the body. We've got increasing demands on our time. And, you know, that's one of the reasons I was so passionate about bringing sunlight into the UK, is that I genuinely feel that everybody should be in an infrared sauna every day. I mean, it's one of the most simple things that you can do to reduce down stress. And stress is then having a knock-on effect on to increasing inflammation. And we know how detrimental that is to our health and, you know, the precursor to so many diseases. So I think it's very difficult to avoid unless you take some pretty drastic steps, especially if you live in a modern city.

Andy Smith 18:01 
I think one of the things I like about sauna use when relating it to stress is, you know, I've got loads of different buy hacks, I've got HBOT at home, I've got my PEMF, red light, all these different things, but a lot of them don't stop you from using your phone, whereas the sauna does because, you know, if you take a phone into a sauna, it overheats a lot of the time. So it's a good opportunity to just shut the door and switch off and stop thinking, stop working, stop emailing and that sort of thing. So, but apart from having a bit of a long time, how does infrared sauna directly impact stress, do you think?

Joie Risk 18:39 
Yeah, I love that you said that because there's not that many opportunities for us to actually switch off and be alone and in our own space. There's some very, you know, different factors at play. Obviously, we're we're triggering off the parasympathetic nervous system. And so we're able to put the body into that parasympathetic state. And if you think about it, unless you are very diligent, and you've learned to meditate properly, or you're taking a very proactive approach to your nervous system regulation, it's not easy to daily put ourselves into that very needed state of rest and died and digest parasympathetic. And you know, one of the reasons I said that mental health was one of the top on sort of, I don't remember what you called it again, underrated benefits of infrared sauna, is that, you know, people often buy infrared sauna, and actually, this is the reason why they keep using it, as opposed to all of the obviously the great physiological benefits. But what we find is we're able to detoxify, detoxify, you know, the brain. And we work with a partner, I don't know if you know, the Dr. Caroline Leaf, who's a neuroscientist, and she talks about the fact that we can rid the body of like neurochemical chaos with infrared. And actually, yeah, it's very powerful. It's reducing down cortisol, putting the body into that state. Also, the impact on sleep also means that we're a lot less stressed. Yeah, we're sleeping better.

Andy Smith 20:24 
No, and that's a good point and one I want to come to next, actually. So another thing that people were just getting lack of sleep and if not lack of quality of sleep, you know, can can sauna help with sleep? And is there a good time to do it before sleep? Because personally, I found. We've got two kids at home, you know, jumping the sauna for half hour or whatever is sometimes it can be a bit difficult to squeeze that in. But if I've done it at seven or eight in the evening, I get most incredible sleep. I do it at nine p.m. and then go to bed at ten. It doesn't affect me too well. So is there good times of my just a bit of an anomaly? But how's infrared helping with sleep, too?

Joie Risk 21:09 
Yes. So we surveyed our customer base and we had a 70 percent rate of people coming back and saying the sauna has positively impacted sleep. And it's something that we've anecdotally known for years when people report back their aura and their wearable results and it's directly correlated. Use the sauna, you have deeper sleep and longer sleep. And look, it's a multifaceted kind of reason as to why sauna affects our sleep so significantly. One of the main ways we know is that it's because it's acting as an exercise mimetic. So even if you don't exercise on a cardio workout, and that in effect is having an impact on our sleep drive. So we know that sauntering in the morning can help with sleep, our sleep drive. And because obviously sleep drive is affected by, you know, levels of oxidative stress, of inflammation. And so sauntering in the morning can help to build up that sleep pressure to the point that you're actually sleeping, feeling sleepy in the evening. So people who struggle to fall asleep, it will definitely help with. At the same time, sauntering in the evening, the mechanism is really because sauna is helping to regulate circadian rhythm. And so one of the ways that it does that is, I mean, again, when our bodies know that they need to create melatonin is when our temperature drops. And so using a sauna before bed means that as your temperature is dropping back to normal, your body is signaling, okay, let me let me create melatonin. And people are, you know, obviously more relaxed as well and able to fall asleep. As for having it later, I would say maybe you're spiking it with I don't in terms of your melatonin production. And so it's not working as well when you're when you're doing it much later in the evening. So

Andy Smith 23:35 
interesting what you're saying about the heart rate and the same sort of effect as going to the gym because that's something I found quite a lot. You know, I used to go to the gym five, six times a week, which actually I'm starting to learn now is almost too many times. But if I'm doing it once or twice a week now and I'm not able to get down there as frequently because of workload and things, chucking a sauna use in there. And one thing I did was because someone said to me, you know, heart rate can reach almost the same as when you're when you're doing an intense workout. I thought, all right, I'll put that to the test and have my whip strapped to my leg with a heart rate monitor on sitting in the sauna. And lo and behold, it went up to nearly 160. So it's really interesting to see. And maybe that for me, if I'm soaring too late, is almost what's having the reverse effect because it's taking a little while to cool cool myself down. And I'm a little bit out of a heightened state. It's almost like going to the gym. I used to do boxing at nine p.m. or something. I couldn't sleep after that. It was just too, you know, too, too generating in the whole body and everything. So maybe it's something relinked to that.

Joie Risk 24:44 
Well it's also potentially your body's unable to drop its temperature and that is why it's preventing you from sleeping or feeling sleepy.

Andy Smith 24:55 
cold on me these days detoxification is another big application for sauna can you detoxify can you still get the same effects in infrared sauna compared to a heated sauna like a traditional and you know are they are they still linked

Joie Risk 25:13 
Infrared sauna is superior in its ability to detoxify the body, so we are able to detoxify lime, we're able to detoxify heavy metals in the infrared sauna, which is not as effective in a traditional sauna. So because we're getting down to the cellular level, it's more of a cellular level detox, if you like. There is a study which is actually on our website, if people want to read it, and it's very interesting because it showed that when an individual was tested for heavy metals after sweating in an infrared sauna, it showed in their sweat a much higher degree of the heavy metals that were excreted that even showed up prior in their blood or their urine. So we're able to effectively detox more than even that we know is in the body at a deeper level when using an infrared sauna. So we've had a long-standing relationship with some of the scientists that work with Lyme disease, for example, and a lot of Lyme disease sufferers will use our sauna to detoxify and really help them keep on top of their symptoms. So it's a very, powerful tool for detoxification.

Andy Smith 26:33 
We touched on how it can almost be like a workout. So, heart health is a big thing. Sunlight specifically did a study on blood pressure, I believe. Yep. What was that study and what was the outcome to that?

Joie Risk 26:46 
Yeah. So, it's a very powerful study and it showed that the use of a sunlight and sauna three times a week over six weeks would result in a reduction in our diastolic and systolic blood pressure. And we are lucky enough to have Dr. Joel Kahn on our scientific advisory board. And he's previously stated that if you could wrap up the benefits of sunlight and sauna in appeal, it would be a billion dollar drug in its ability to reduce blood pressure. So, it's a natural tool. Obviously, we're not telling people that they should just get off their meds. However, it is having a, you know, from what we see with our clients and with their practitioners, it's having a, and it reduces their blood pressure effectively. So, and that's, we've been able to show that with clinical studies.

Andy Smith 27:38 
No, good. And we're seeing a lot now of founders, CEOs, but athletes, you know, all these sort of people are starting to really lean into sauna work. You know, I've, I've had a sauna now for a couple of years and it's one of my favorite things to lean into. Um, we looked at your Instagram and there's a picture of Cristiano Ronaldo sitting in one of the sunlight and saunas, which, um, good link. Cause we managed to sell him a PEMF device back in the day. So, but why do you think these type of people I'm really in specifically are leaning into these, these top buy hacks.

Joie Risk 28:14 
Um, I think that, you know, especially when it comes to someone like Cristiano, um, he, he's someone that's been always been at the cutting edge of, you know, what can I use in order to improve my, um, my training and my recovery. And so, um, he, I think that athletes that are looking to just get that edge, realize that it's not just about training. Their recovery is very, very important. Um, and, uh, we work with a number of athletes, um, who, uh, where, you know, they, their recovery routine is very simple, but it literally is including a, a sauna and optimizing their sleep. And they know that, um, you know, that's going to be able to give them the edge that they need in, in what they're doing. And I think for, for other, uh, business, uh, people and CEOs and people who need to have a high level of cognitive performance on a day-to-day basis, um, they understand that this is a source of energy. It's a source of detoxification and, and to stay on top of their game. Um, it's a really, really incredible tool. So it's, it's working on the body, you know, I, I've always said it's sort of body, mind and spirit within Fred saunas. And so you get a lot of bang for your buck with that one session. So, uh, they've realized that and they're using it. To their advantage.

Andy Smith 29:34 
Decision fatigue I've heard that recently said that's a new well it's not a new thing it's it's been a long time but it's very it's very very true it's nice to see as well that like. Business people business owners that sort of thing they don't always come into this for financial reasons you know like when we talk about my own story I got really sick when I was twenty five years old like me fourteen years ago now and I discovered PEMF therapy. Couldn't understand why no one in the UK had heard of this therapy still isn't as big as it should be and you know I got into it for personal reasons and I wanted to educate people around PEMF therapy for you I think there was a similar sort of reason you weren't just coming into for financial reasons initially so what what was your introduction into infrared saunas.

Joie Risk 30:27 
Yeah. I mean, you know, I love your story and I think it's, it's very, very powerful and I think people can really see that and it resonates with them. For me, it wasn't financial at all. I mean, I started to use an infrared sauna and I recognized the benefits in my own life. I'd had challenges around mental health and around sleep and I just had a baby and I realized the benefits in my body and I'm, I'm Australian and I kind of, I know that that doesn't really match with her being, in having a sauna, but there's a very famous sauna and ocean pool in Sydney, which I'm sure, I don't know if you've heard of called Bondi Icebergs and I've incredible memories of going there and it, you know, it's like the classic contrast therapy that have a traditional sauna there and they have, they have the ocean pool. And in the past it had, had a huge impact on my nervous system and when I started using the infrared sauna back in the UK, that sun, that correlation with the sun and that experience stuck with me and I thought, I started to experience benefits for sleep and benefits in my health and I realized again, like yourself, this wasn't recognized in the UK or being used very much and as I got into it and I realized how much scientific evidence there was behind it and how it was a miracle pill and had such incredible impacts for body, mind and spirit, I knew that I wanted to share it with everybody in the UK and also being Australian, used to having more sun, the UK, in the UK people are really, you know, wanting to feel different. And we get two days of sun here. Exactly. And you know, there's a lot of damp, there's a lot of cold and I think it's really that I was trying to find a solution to that and I recognize how powerful it would be for others. So.

Andy Smith 32:32 
Joie knows from personal experience how much light plays a huge role in how we feel, from my energy and mood to how well our bodies recover. And if your goal is longevity, then supporting detox pathways, circulation and nervous system regulation is key.

Sunlighten Ad 32:47 
For more than 25 years, Sunlighten has been at the forefront of infrared light therapy, developing saunas that deliver safe, restorative heat and light shown to support detoxification, cardiovascular health, recovery, sleep and overall resilience. What really sets them apart is their patented technology. Pulse IQ is the world's only intelligent infrared platform that delivers red light, plus near, mid and far infrared wavelengths, all separately for greater absorption and more personalized wellness programs. This isn't about chasing wellness trends, Sunlight and saunas are trusted worldwide, delivering more than 14 million sauna sessions annually to over 200,000 customers and supported by more than 200 health and wellness experts alongside an independent scientific advisory board. If you're looking to build a simple, consistent daily ritual that supports your long-term health, it's definitely worth exploring. Visit sunlighten.com/PEMFPOD and use the code PEMFPOD when inquiring and receive an additional £200 pounds off the latest promotional pricing.

Visit Sunlighten: www.sunlighten.com/PEMFPOD

Andy Smith 33:50 
So what does infrared sauna look like for you now? What's your protocol? How often are you using it? And what do you think the benefits you're seeing personally?

Joie Risk 34:01 
Um, so, um, I, I use it in a couple of different ways. Um, maybe it's a little bit controversial, but so we have a, we're lucky to have an infrared sauna studio, um, at our showroom in great Portland street. So, um, we, we open it to the public, but also we have it internally for our team. So I'll often have a one-to-one meetings with people in the, in there, um, because we're, you know, doubling up and being able to do two things at once. Um, at home, I tend to use it in the morning. Um, I am a really big, uh, meditator. So I find that using the sauna while meditating, um, enables me to have, you know, deeper meditations. Uh, I also end up with, you know, having very creative ideas pop into my head and I'm able to sort of, I think resolve things that have been on my mind, um, through like having a deeper level. Meditation. Um, I, and I have a red light panel at my desk and I, I have it on fairly frequently throughout the, throughout the day. Um, and, uh, yeah, I mean, I've also started doing a lot of, um, sanctum, we are sanctum, who we recently met. Um, so, uh, so I'd sauna after that, which I find an incredible kind of reset on the weekend as well.

Andy Smith 35:26 
We actually met face-to-face in Corfu not long ago, although we've been to the Health Optimization Summit a number of times before to see each other then, but you mentioned Sanctum, is that the first time you've had the experience with Sanctum?

Joie Risk 35:39 
And I was blown away. I'm totally hooked now and Gabs become one of my friends. And yeah, we're looking to collaborate further in their, in their, in their events. Oh, cool. So yeah.

Andy Smith 35:51 
big shout out to those guys. Honestly, look at the, um, check them out there. It's a, it's transformational experience. It really is quite cool. Um, yeah.

Joie Risk 36:02 
I was going to say, I mean, and they have a lovely, well, they tend to pair, I mean, it's such a nervous system reset, you know, if you, and yes, you have to experience it for yourself. But they do tend to pair it with sauna. And I think that there is a lot to be said for, you're stirring up all of these emotions and then you're releasing them and actually the sauna enables you to kind of finish that whole process off. And yeah, it's a very, it's a very powerful mix.

Andy Smith 36:34 
It's an interesting link actually, because funny enough, I met the two founders of Sanctum in a sauna in Ibiza, which is really strange to put out there. But, uh, yeah, great guys. And it's, um, it's, it's more of an experience than tech for people listening. Um, but they have just downloaded a, they have just released an app as well. So you can do it from home. So it's all good. Um, you mentioned in there about meditation and I've seen your Instagram about binaural beats and that sort of thing that you kind of stack with, with sauna use and obviously you just mentioned sanctum as well. Um, I personally at home have managed to get our accelerate PEMF mat inside a sunlight and because we tested it when we were doing originally original testing up to about 65 degrees. So again, another benefit of, uh, infrared sauntering is the, the actual temperature doesn't get too high. So I can actually use my PEMF device in the sunlight and by kind of using my traditional device. Um, but there are any other biohacks out there that you stack with, with, uh, that you haven't mentioned.

Joie Risk 37:37 
I tend to, I mean, actually it's not really a biohack, but I often will either go for a run before sauna or actually rebounding is a really powerful way to just supercharge the detoxification in the sauna. I personally don't do binders, but I know a lot of people that do. But I find that rebounding, which is also like, I feel that it has fallen out of fashion, but it's an incredible biohack for cellular health as well as cardiovascular health and also in terms of mental health. It's a really good thing to do before sauna. But yeah, I try to keep it quite serene and meditate and sometimes I'll listen to music or a guided meditation.

Andy Smith 38:25 
Yeah. And I heard you mentioned something about, you know, having some of these thoughts when you're in meditation and that sort of thing. And it's funny, my wife, you know, I go for a run sometimes and it's the times where you haven't got any other distractions, you have these thoughts, you come back, brainwave, you know, every time I go for a run, I come home and I'm like, yeah, it's started happening now for it during my sort of use as well. Like, so it was a good, good little link there. Um, you know, my wife kind of prepares herself knowing that going out for the idea is contrast therapy. Let's talk about contrast therapy because this is probably one of the widest debated topic when it comes to sauna use, because hot, there must be something that goes with hot, cold and sunlight. And I believe it's just acquired a cold plunge company as well. So I imagine sunlight and see the synergies there. So what's your, what's your overall thoughts on contrast and why sunlight bought a cold plunge company?

Joie Risk 39:29 
So we've been asked by our customers for a very long time for an immersive cold experience. And so we were, we were looking for the right opportunity to be able to offer offer that. I think that really the reason that we decided to go in this direction also is to bring the sunlight and approach I'd say to cold therapy. Two of our company values are be true and to push the bar higher. And I think that what we do is to take science and really, really look at it and interrogate it and make sure that we're not doing something that is part of a fad or just the way it's always been done and to look at the science and say actually, how should this modality like sauna actually be done. And we did we've done that with sauna. And we think that we can do the same with cold. And I think there's a lot of misconception about how to use cold people just doing it the way that their friends are doing it or their husband or their wife are doing it. And we would like to personalize the experience for people around timing around gender specific protocols. So and re and temperature, the big one. So we wanted to, you know, put our spin on on things and make it personalized and accessible for our customers to use

Andy Smith 41:05 
And I think that's really important because people just think the hottest you can get the sauna, the coldest you can get a nice bath, you know, combine the two.

Joie Risk 41:14 
Well, people think you have to suffer. I mean, this is also the other misconception is with sauna, we talk to people all the time. Oh, I have to suffer for it to be working. And it's actually not the case if you look at the science.

Andy Smith 41:27 
Yeah, no, exactly. We had Laura for monk on the, on, on the podcast. And, you know, what she was saying was a lot of the studies in cold plunging, you know, or between eight and 10 degrees, most ice baths these days go to, you know, there's, there's some on the market go down to 0.5. And obviously people are thinking, right, well, if it goes down that bar, it needs to be same. We see the same in the PMS industry. It's the higher the intensity, the better, um, when it comes to the protocol. So we've had, we had a professor green on the podcast and he had his protocol, which was sauna 15 minutes, ice sauna, ice sauna. He did it in that, uh, angle. And then we had Alison from sweat lounge, who her view is she's kind of very much against cold plunging. So it's very much of becoming in for a sauna. That's what you're coming in for the benefits for. And you know, it's sauna and no ice bath. My protocol is I tend to do a cold plumb first. Then I'll jump in the sauna for 15 minutes, and then I'll come out of the sauna to get a bit of a breather and let my body naturally cool down. Then I'll do another 15 minutes in the sauna. But this is a traditional one. So is there a correct protocol? Cause you've got three people there kind of doing it in three different ways. Um, is there a general rule or is it very specific?

Joie Risk 42:54 
It's specific to what you want to achieve, however, I will say for the vast majority of people who are looking to do cold or contrast therapy, they're looking to build, you know, to feel energised and to build resilience and to have, to feel like on a high afterwards. So if you see how this whole cold developed, I mean, there are people who are in, you know, natural lakes and plunging in lakes. And so it definitely feels amazing. I don't know if that's what you, if that's what you experienced. So the bottom line is that it really depends. It depends on what you want to achieve out of it. And we work with lots of scientists and we work with lots of, you know, football clubs and look at their protocols for their players. And it depends. So with a football player, is it mechanical fatigue or is it, are they actually, you know, retired and do we need to get more, more energy into the body? You know, so their protocols will differ on that. So if someone is looking for building that adaptability in the body, I would say that India on cold is generally the way to go. However, if you're looking to build in, you know, it also really depends on timing and I really want to caveat this, but it depends on the timing. If you're looking to really relax, then potentially you have longer sessions, but you may end on, end on, on hot. But it's, I think it's very specific to the individual, you know, what, you know, what gender are they? What's their history with cold? What's their history with, with sauna use? And then also what state are they in? Are they burnt out? What's their nervous system like? And because if their nervous system is not in a good place, well, our goal is regulation. But if they're in a stronger place, then we're looking to push more adaptability.

Andy Smith 45:00 
Okay, so let's give two hypothetical scenarios. You're going to pin me to an hour's an hour, aren't you? We've got a female CEO working long hours. She's very stressed. And then we've got a female athlete who just wants a performance. Is there general rules that those two people should stick to?

Joie Risk 45:19 
Absolutely. So, I mean, the female CEO should definitely steer clear of, you know, the goal is recovery. The goal is nervous system regulation. And so, you know, the worst thing she could do is go into a traditional sauna and do cold plunging and, you know, go between the two at the hottest and coldest temperatures possible. I mean, that is likely to push this individual completely over the edge. Instead, what you would do is, you know, I would lean into heat, more calming, longer, not as hot sessions with the infrared, and then build in, you know, maybe 10 degree sessions in the cold plunge for shorter periods, because we know that women, you know, have their, their, their bud vessels will contract much faster, but being for shorter sessions at higher temperatures. The athlete, on the other hand, you know, may, may do contrast therapy and really push the boundaries with the, with the contrast, but potentially still end on cold, because we're looking to, you know, depending on what time of the day they're doing it, bring more energy into the body and push that adaptability a bit further. So, yes, it's a completely different approach.

Andy Smith 46:38 
And I mentioned females in particular because I know with cold plunging, there's also a better time to do it throughout the month. Does the same go for saunas as well?

Joie Risk 46:52 
That's a great question. I don't actually think so. I think that potentially use of the infrared sauna throughout a woman's cycle is actually very positive. I think that where cold is not used in that part of the cycle, I think it's actually very beneficial to use infrared in terms of regulating nervous system and balancing out hormones. And so I think consistent use throughout a woman's cycle is actually very powerful.

Andy Smith 47:27 
Yeah. Okay. And there's, there's risks involved in extreme heat and extreme cold. You know, we hear about risk of cardiovascular health or, um, just general overdoing it and shocking the system. Um, are you aware of these risks and is there good ways you would say to avoid, you know, to minimize any risk using the two.

Joie Risk 47:48 
Absolutely. I mean, people need to be aware that it's actually a real risk and people have had serious complications from using contrast therapy in the incorrect way. I mean, this is a real thing. I think that it needs to be guided. I would say if you've never done it before, you need to have someone guide you through an experience. I would say never push your body to any extremes and build up slowly. And I mean, there's still benefits in cold at the end of the day, even at 12 degrees. So I would say that it's very necessary for a person to take it very slow and build up to where they can actually tolerate first.

Andy Smith 48:34 
And let's talk about some common myths and misconceptions when it comes to this technology. I'll get comfortable. It's a hot topic for me as well. You know, I think all industries, including supplements, biohacking tech. There's a lot of cowboys out there. There's a lot of noise. There's a lot of things to sift through. So we see like these lamps and that sort of thing when it comes to infrared. You know, some of them have been tested and they just turn out to be heat lamps. What should we be looking for when it comes to looking for a good infrared system? Or avoiding, should I say?

Joie Risk 49:08 
I think that I think that you need to be you know very careful as you say that there's a lot of noise out there and I think as the topic of infrared sauna has become bigger there are more people out there producing goods that you know I don't even want to say recreational but they don't produce many results so um I think that firstly people so your question was what do they you know what do they need to know what's him

Andy Smith 49:40 
Yeah, what to avoid yeah, what should people be avoiding in that you know when they're looking for infrared products

Joie Risk 49:45 
Well, I think you need to be, the first thing is, you know, does the company actually have options that would suit you or is it a one size fits all? I think that is a red flag. I think any company that you buy from should take some time to understand what it is that you're looking to achieve and how they can best provide that. Because, you know, not all infrared is created equal for sure. And I think also the quality. So when you buy an infrared sauna, you're really looking at two things. You're looking at the quality of the heaters and its ability to deliver enough infrared. And that is not a generic term, not infrared in total. Or I think it's full spectrum is spoken about a lot, which just means often one heater, one actual heater delivering multiple wavelengths, which is not really effective at delivering any one wavelength very well. So, you know, I think that the company needs to be able to show how they deliver it, what's right for you, be able to show how effective their heaters are. And then the other thing is obviously safety with an infrared sauna is an electric sauna. So the electromagnetic frequencies, EMFs, CLFs is quite important to make sure that they're ultra low. But I think it's multifaceted. So you asked me what at the beginning, what one thing do people need to look out for? And I think it's where companies or individuals focus on one USP of the company or of the infrared sauna at the expense of everything else. There's a lots of different things that people need to be aware of. So it's the effective enough of the heaters, the safety and then making sure in totality that this is the right thing to meet your goals.

Andy Smith 51:47 
And we see a lot of white labeling on in, in the industry. So, and what I mean by that is you can go on Alibaba, AliExpress made in china.com and you can find these products and you can send your, your logo and hey, presto you you've got products and yeah, and you know, for me, keep an eye on these companies that one day they have a PEMF mat, the next day they have a sauna, the next day they have it, you know, and they keep releasing these products. There's, for me, there's no development going into these, but we see quite commonly the sauna blankets, quite, you know, quite cheap versions of these sauna blankets. What are your thoughts on them and you know, if this, if you're sweating, if you're getting some response from it, is, is that all you need?

Joie Risk 52:31 
Yeah, I mean, I'll say something quite controversial. I think it's not there. They're quite frankly unsafe and oftentimes at a very low price point. Unfortunately, we're not at the point where we can achieve a very low price point, 100 pound, 200 pound infrared sauna blanket that's effective and safe. So look, there are better ways to activate heat shock proteins. If you can't afford a sauna, like having literally a hot bath. Or, you know, let's just get get out there in the sun. But the blankets that are really cheap are, number one, if you were to strip back the blanket and look at it, it's nothing more than a, like a hot blanket that you put on your bed. It is not true infrared. It's not delivering enough infrared for it to be anywhere near effective for you. And then it's made of materials often. We often find PVCs and plastics and toxic materials being used that are causing off gassing or that you're absorbing into your skin. So you end up with more problems than you potentially started with. So, you know, I think it's nice to maybe play around with it and see if actually you're going to use it for some people, but really it's of no therapeutic use. And in some cases I would avoid because they could be unsafe.

Andy Smith 53:54 
Yeah. And it's interesting you mentioned that because we see in a lot of PEMF devices now introducing far infrared and that sort of thing, um, or near infrared. And it's, again, a lot of the ones we've tested, it's just heating coils or heating copper. It's just, it's producing heat, but that's not what we're trying to achieve when it comes to far infrared. So again, yeah.

Joie Risk 54:16 
Yeah, I mean, you can get heaters from B&Q, which heat outdoor restaurants, are technically infrared. But these are not enough therapeutic infrared to be effective at all. So you're right, it's just heat for heat's sake.

Andy Smith 54:35 
Yeah, and you can go into Costco now, you can go on Amazon. You can buy a sauna that looks like a sunlight and sauna. Why shouldn't somebody do that?

Joie Risk 54:48 
Well, you know, I think that you're wasting your money, even though it may be cheaper, it's kind of, you know, not effective. I think you say that they look the same. I would argue that if you put the two products side by side, you would be able to see immediately like a huge difference, you know, from the wood quality to even the weight. I mean, we see some of these where our standard sauna weighs about 400 kilos, you know, some of these saunas weigh about 100. So if you imagine, you know, the thickness of wood or how much care is put into, you know, the build quality, it's completely different. And then, yeah, I mean, again, it's using heaters that you could buy from B&Q, essentially, in some of these Costco potentially made saunas. So they're not really doing anything for your body. And secondly, they're definitely going to have high levels of EMF. They're going to have high levels of toxins. So they're going to have the wood will be treated with chemicals and then heaven forbid you try to move the sauna because it's all put together with nails. It will completely fall apart. So and with time, you know, sauna makes wood expand and contract over time and over usage. And so what we see is with poorer quality saunas is that that can cause warping or cracking in the wood so they don't tend to last either.

Andy Smith 56:24 
And we hear about the adhesives being used as well and a term called off-gassing. Yep. What's that and why don't people want any off-gassing in an enclosed space?

Joie Risk 56:34 
Yeah, so yeah, it's an it's a topic that comes up with infrared specifically because the way that, you know, how we talked about the way that infrared heats. So it's because it heats organic matter and it and it's absorbed into the wood and any other material it can cause off gassing. And so, you know, in our household, in our environment, there are lots of toxins used in the building process. You know, we take a lot of care at Sunlight and we have actually testing by a company called Chemical Dynamics, which show that actually the air quality inside the sauna, in a lot of cases, is safer than outside the sauna. But the materials used inside need to be non-toxic. Otherwise, you're applying infrared heat, that infrared heat is allowing the toxins to be released and you're inhaling them. So it becomes more of an issue and something that needs to be paid attention to, particularly with an infrared sauna. And so a lot of people who are white labelling or not, you know, not experts in the space don't even know this and will produce a sauna that potentially has off gassing.

Andy Smith 57:52 
Yeah. And something we see in the PEMF industry quite a lot is devices with many, many different technologies built into them. So we kind of touched on this already, but, um, you know, we, we're seeing six or seven sometimes now technologies and PEMF mats and actually they're selling them PEMF mats for even less than what we sell our brand for. And you know, we only provide PEMF therapy. So people see on the surface, you know, you've got, okay, well this device is three times the cost, but it only does PEMF. This device is a third of the cost, but it actually has seven different technologies in it, including gemstones, crystals, uh, you know, and then vibrant for red and lights and all this sort of thing. Are we seeing this happening in the sawn industry? And I know, I know, you know, we stack also red light with ours, but we do it with two different technologies, you're inputting another product into sawners and you have to pay more for that. But are we seeing people ticking many, many, many different therapies in, in these enclosed cabins now? And is that happening? And again, something to avoid or can it be done correctly?

Joie Risk 58:55 
Yeah, I think that in some cases there's other apparatus which is being sold to put inside a sauna. I think what's really important is that people understand that we pay a lot of attention to the science. So we are not going to introduce something just because it's a fad or whatnot. We are looking at, you know, does the science stack up for this modality to be included? And we are specialists in infrared. So, yeah, there's all kinds of other modalities which people try to include. Some could be counter to the actual sauna being still safe to use. I mean, we stack chromotherapy because it fits quite nicely. Obviously, I don't know if you know much about chromotherapy, but it's the science of how different colors impact our nervous system and the different chakras in the body. Now, obviously, it's an ancient kind of tradition. We didn't invent chromotherapy, but we use that within the sauna because it enhances the experience and it works very, very well. There are, yes, there are loads of other things, but I think that they're more, again, it's focused on features rather than what's actually going to move the needle.

Andy Smith 01:00:31 
And something we found really interesting with sunlight and when we're doing a lot of research was that you guys want to be very involved in the manufacturing process and, you know, doing all the tweaks yourself. Same with us, you know, it took us six years to get our product to market. Um, there's easier ways to do it, but it's, you don't want to, you know, we, you want to make sure your product that you're selling is, is exactly to the specification you need it for. So why is it so important for you guys to be that involved in the manufacturing process?

Joie Risk 01:01:01 
Yeah, I mean, we design, we manufacture, we patented our own heaters and I think the only way that we could produce a sunlight and infrared sauna and have the best technology that there is on the market is to completely own every part of the process. And so we can control the quality and we can control and make sure that our infrared heaters are delivering that patented infrared that we are so famous for, which we could never achieve with having anybody else manufacture. So we want to control how effective it is and we want to really, really own that. And I think that's very much aligned with our values as well. And we're very transparent about our manufacturing process and what we do and what we don't do. And I think that that's important for people, especially today. There's so much noise and I think that people really want to trust the company. I mean, I know this is happening a lot in the supplement industry. There's a lot more scrutiny as to what is actually in the supplements. And it's really the same thing with infrared. It's not a case of just slapping a so-called infrared heater there. There's a lot more to it.

Andy Smith 01:02:20 
We're seeing this with AG1 one of the biggest supplement companies in the world now and because they've chose to keep their blend proprietary for so long now it's all been exposed that it's you know there's not a lot of things happening in it and some of the big influences are pulling them down.

Joie Risk 01:02:38 
Yeah, I mean, we recently spoke to Professor Glenn Jeffery from UCL and he's done a lot of research on light therapy and he's kind of warning that there's going to be quite a backlash in the light therapy industry and especially for all of these red light masks, which are potentially causing mitochondrial dysfunction for people because the LEDs are not effective.

Andy Smith 01:03:07 
I shared a video yesterday on some of these LED masks, because again, it's a territory we haven't stepped into because we couldn't find good ones, but I know you guys have just released one, and the first thing I said was, it's a solid mask. Instantly that tells me you guys have thought into it, because those flexible ones, the ones pushed against your face, there's reasons why they can't be effective. I mean, I don't know.

Joie Risk 01:03:34 
I don't think most people know that LEDs are notoriously subject to not working. I mean, for an LED, I mean, companies go through thousands and thousands of LEDs to find ones that are actually consistently working over time. So most likely that mask that you bought three years ago is not delivering anywhere, even if it is a good quality mask, it's not delivering enough light anymore. So it's it's I think that is about to be exposed.

Andy Smith 01:04:04 
Yeah. And I think we're seeing that now as I've already shared about two, two videos this week on, on those masks. Um, and it's a big, it's a big problem in the wellness industry is you can get cheap product and you can, you know, you can follow a trend and people are out there making money from it, but it has to be done correctly. Um, and you know, it's one of the reasons why we went with panels. I know you guys do panels as well, because you know, the, the, the, the basic understanding for me is, is getting an led face mask to get the power you need it for, for a therapeutic benefit, it's going to give unwanted radiation panels do give unwanted radiation, but you're not pushing up against it so that by the time it reaches you, it's, it's therapeutic levels. If you, to avoid that unwanted radiation, you need to do a lot less power on a, on a led mask. So there's a catch 22 going on with, with LEDs that touch in the skin. But even if it was an effective led, you're only getting it in one spot. And then the next led in it. So there's not even good coverage. So yeah, it's a, anyway, we, we, we digress, but the, the, the, the mask has been a hot topic for me for a long time. Um, when people think of sunlight and they will probably think traditional, um, wooden cabin, but I've seen you guys with the, the kind of sauna dome type looking ones as, as a personal one, why would someone go for one of them over, over a cabin? What's, what's the differences going on here?

Joie Risk 01:05:32 
I think for modern small apartments or homes where someone doesn't have a lot of space, it's really compact. It can be used and then it can be used on a bed even and put away in the corner of a room after it's been used. Often people also want to lay down, so if someone has a very strong preference to lay down in a sauna or they're looking for a sauna to help with nervous system regulation or depression or anything like that, or just frankly want that comfort, to have a laying down cabin sauna, you need quite a large one, so it works quite well for that. It heats up really fast, it literally plugs into a regular wall socket and away you go. It's a really important tool for also some commercial businesses where they want to provide other treatments alongside infrared as well. So it comes down to more usability and how it fits into someone's life. We've put them on yachts, people's yachts, we've put them on planes, so where someone wants access, more portable access to infrared.

Andy Smith 01:06:36 
Yeah. And I think I like the, the privacy that comes with that side of things as well, because you in the sauna industry, you kind of have like places like arc in London, where it's a big social experiment. And then you have, um, places like, um, sweat lounge, which I mentioned before, which is a very private, intimate experience where, you know, so if you don't want to get into a bikini in front of 15 other people, then you can absolutely go and use that option. And I think that's where these, these ones also fit in really nicely.

Joie Risk 01:07:08 
Or you can also have, you know, one and two person. You can have private sauna cabins as well. But yeah. No, it makes sense.

Andy Smith 01:07:16 
And EMFs is a word that gets thrown around quite a lot at the moment, like high frequency, negative EMFs. How does sunlight approach that? Because there's a bit of confusion when it comes to the light spectrum, EMFs, and then the negative kind of EMFs. So where does sunlight stand in terms of providing good EMFs?

Joie Risk 01:07:38 
Yeah, I think that, you know, this is a very important point and one where there's a lot of fear mongering in the industry, I would say. So the first point is that, you know, obviously EMF, ELF is a very important point for us. We've been doing this for over 25 years. We've spent a lot of money in research and development in reducing down our EMF levels to almost zero. So we're proud to say that they're basically zero. We take a lot of steps in the manufacturing process to ensure that's the case. And we are also third party tested. So with Vitatec, which is one of the leading testing companies in the space who come in and test our equipment and make sure that it is, you know, below zero. So I think that below five is understood to be quite safe. And yeah, we're below that, well below one. So why is it important? Yeah, because again, we were having an electrical sauna. I mean, I think people also need to understand that they're surrounded by a lot of EMFs on a day to day basis. So often, you know, people will be very concerned about this on the phone to us, but they're talking to us on a mobile phone for about an hour. And we're saying, well, actually, that the more detrimental effect is what you're doing currently on a mobile phone, speaking to us. Not to say that we shouldn't reduce our exposure to EMFs or ELFs, but it is very, very important to recognise that we need to take a wider view and try to reduce overall exposure. And then we do have, obviously, there are people who are particularly EMF sensitive, where they are, you know, they do notice that the EMFs in their body, and these are people who won't, will only use landline phones and will limit their exposure. But even then, we're able to, you know, that we can provide them a very safe infrared sauna experience. So, yeah, I mean, if anyone wants to see that testing, it's on our website and yeah.

Andy Smith 01:09:46 
It's good that you provide that information. It's nice, it's open, it's transparent, like you said. So if somebody's got this far, they're listening to nearly at the end, they're thinking, okay, I'm going to go out and buy, I'm going to go and buy, not sorry. Nearly a slip of the tongue. And infrared sauna. Other than going on the sunlight and website, what should they be looking for for a good one? What are the main features or aspects?

Joie Risk 01:10:13 
Yeah. So I think one of the main things is to make sure that you can go somewhere and touch and feel the sauna and be able to feel the quality. I think given what we've talked about and the industry changing, it's very important that you can go to a showroom or something like that and really try it out. If you're not able to do that, I think it's important to look at where else the saunas are used. Are they used in major, for example, wearing lots of high-end hospitality places and maybe go and visit one of those. Secondly, it's important that you're not just told, oh, yes, we produce high-quality heaters. You can be shown that evidence that, okay, how the sauna heaters work and some sort of proof, because again, there's a lot of unsubstantiated marketing claims out there that, oh, yes, the full spectrum is good and there's actually no basis for it. Ideally, you have a patented heater. And then I think for people in the UK, also given the market, is that you have UK-based, the company from has UK-based consultants, they're backed by UK warranty as well, because we see a lot of distributor-led warranties where they're not really worth the paper they're written on, even though they may be lifetime or something like that. And so, can you call someone to help you if your sauna is not working or for advice in the UK? And then really, looking at talking to the company about what is the right wavelength for me is very important.

Andy Smith 01:11:58 
And actually, a lot of our listeners, probably majority of our listeners, here in the USA. So Sunline is available in the USA, isn't it? And it's one of the main markets. Yeah, we are.

Joie Risk 01:12:05 
a very big office and showroom in Kansas City, which you can visit, of course, or call into our team. So we've got a really big team there that will take the time to walk you through what is the best wavelength and what's the best sauna for you.

Andy Smith 01:12:22 
And kind of last question is, you know, why is sunlight and different to the rest? There's a lot of noise in the sauna industry. It's been, it's a typical technology around for a long time.

Joie Risk 01:12:32 
Yep.

Andy Smith 01:12:33 
Why is sunlight in the better one?

Joie Risk 01:12:36 
I love this. So I think it comes down to firstly, that our values, and I think that we've always been very transparent in what we do. We've always taken a lot of care in how we do things. And I think that people, you know, when they get to know us can really feel that we care and we want, we really, we genuinely want people to be in the right infrared and to the second thing is we've been innovating, like leading the innovation the entire time throughout the industry. So we were the first to bring out this Pulse IQ, our new wellness platform where we can deliver personalized infrared. And we've just led the way throughout our time in terms of what is possible for infrared. And you know, we'll continue to do that. And so yeah, people love us because you know, we say it like it is we deliver on our promises, we show people that we you know, what we can do, we don't just talk about it. And also we work with a lot of incredible partners who, who really want to work with us and who genuinely use our saunas and want to share that message. So I think that's really important. So that's very, it's very genuine. And we have an incredible scientific advisory board, then if you know, but we've got Professor Michael Hamlin, who is the the leading scientist on on infrared who wrote the science on infrared on our advisory board. And I think that that that's very special. And we have regular catch ups with him about, you know, his latest research and, and what's changing. And that is, you know, at the forefront of our R&D. So

Andy Smith 01:14:21 
So if people want to take a deeper dive into infrared saunas, how can they find you or how can they find sunlight and what's the, what's the best port call?

Joie Risk 01:14:29 
So, I mean, anyone who wants to learn more is welcome to visit our London showroom. We are, we've opened an incredible space at 29 to 31 Great Portland Street. We have an infrared sauna studio. They can book in and use the saunas. They can obviously call in or chat with our team. Our team is, you know, very passionate about what we do and about helping people find the right product for them and to dispel myths and help them understand. And yes, or if anyone wants to ask me direct questions on Instagram, my handle's Joie Risk or sunlight.uk and yeah, we would love to take any questions.

Andy Smith 01:15:09 
Thanks for the today's episode and sharing your knowledge. It really does help. You know, for people listening, uh, we can't have these conversations without you guys following and subscribing the podcast. So please do if you haven't, if you're an avid listener to this podcast, it takes two seconds to just jump on that platform and follow or like, or give us some kind of, um, review anything. If you want to talk, uh, if you want to ask questions to gel, then just drop them under this episode and we'll make sure that she gets them, but thanks again for your time today.

Joie Risk 01:15:39 
Thanks for having me.