Andy Smith 00:00 
A quick disclaimer before we begin. The PEMF podcast does not contain any medical advice and the content provided is for informational purposes only. If you have any health concerns, please visit a healthcare professional.

Welcome back to the PEMF podcast. Today we're diving into one of the biggest and most talked about areas in PEMF, the nervous system. You'll often hear people talk about PEMF helping to calm the body or shift you from a sympathetic fight-or-flight state into more of a parasympathetic rest and recover mode. But when you actually look a bit closer, a lot of that tends to be based more on anecdotal experience than clearly explained science.

Joshua Roberts 00:46 
Yeah, so in this episode, we're going to break that down properly or look at the difference between what the parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous systems actually are and how much influence PEMF can actually play on them and whether PEMF can actually affect that balance and looking at what the research says for things like the vagus nerve, heart rate variability and autonomic function.

Andy Smith 01:06 
Then we'll move into real world use, covering how this actually shows up in practice, my own experience and some simple ways people applying PEMF when it comes to stress, recovery and overall nervous system support. So if you've ever wondered whether PEMF can actually help you feel calmer, sleep better or recover more efficiently, this episode will give you much more clearer science-led understanding of what's really going on.

Joshua Roberts 01:31 
Yeah, exactly. Because there's a lot of hype when it comes to PEMF and nervous system. So we want to really break through that hype and kind of see what the science actually says. But for anyone that's new, what actually is PEMF in under 30 seconds?

Andy Smith 01:44 
PEMF therapy stands for post-electromagnetic field therapy. It is a non-invasive drug-free and natural treatment that uses post-electromagnetic fields to stimulate the body's natural healing processes to create the optimal environment to heal.

Joshua Roberts 01:59 
Before we get into kind of what the studies say and kind of what the science says, let's just kind of clarify what parasympathetic and the sympathetic nervous system actually is because we're going to be talking about that a lot in this episode. So yeah, what is the difference between the two and what actually are they?

Andy Smith 02:15 
Yes, when we talk about the nervous system in this context, we're usually referring to the autonomic nervous system, which controls things we don't consciously think about, like heart rate, breathing, digestion, and stress responses. Within that, you've got two main branches. The first is the sympathetic nervous system, which is basically your fight or flight response. That's what kicks in when you're stressed, under pressure, or need to be alert. It increases heart rate, sharpens focus, and gets the body ready to act. The second is the parasympathetic nervous system, often called rest and digest. That's more about recovery, slowing the heart rate, supporting digestion, improving sleep, and helping the body to repair. The key thing is, it's not about one being good and the other being bad, you need both. The problem is, in modern life, a lot of people are spending too much time in the sympathetic, the switched on state, and not enough time in the parasympathetic mode, where the body can actually recover. So when people talk about things like stress or sleep, or feeling constantly wired but tired, a lot of that comes back to how well the body is able to shift between those two states. It's not about turning stress off, it's about being able to switch it off or dial it down when you need to.

Joshua Roberts 03:39 
Yeah, so you mentioned in there about doing the shift from sympathetic to parasympathetic, kind of going from that kind of alert state more into the kind of relax and recovery state. Is there any kind of PEMF studies that look directly at shifting you from one state to the other?

Andy Smith 03:56 
There is some early evidence pointing in that direction but it's not as black and white as people may make it sound. For example a fairly large double blind placebo controlled study with 485 participants looked at PEMF applied around the neck targeting the vagus nerve. They tested different frequencies 6 hertz 16 hertz and 32 hertz and found that 16 hertz group showed the most noticeable improvements in sleep quality along with some reductions in anxiety. Now the reason that's interesting is because the vagus nerve is one of the main drivers of the parasympathetic nervous system. It helps regulate things like heart rate, relaxation, digestion and recovery. So when you see improvements in things like sleep and anxiety which are both heavily influenced by the parasympathetic activity, it suggests that the system may be shifting in that direction. But it's important to say this study didn't directly measure things like HRV or vagal tone so it's not proving a full sympathetic to parasympathetic switch. It's better to think of it as potentially nudging the nervous system towards a more relaxed recovery focused state rather than just flipping a switch.

Joshua Roberts 05:10 
Yeah, so is it fair to kind of say that PEMF is kind of directly activating your parasympathetic nervous system or activating a parasympathetic state?

Andy Smith 05:21 
That's probably too strong, we don't really have direct proof of that yet, it's more accurate to say things like it may be influencing the systems that regulate the balance, particularly through things like the vagus nerve.

Joshua Roberts 05:33 
OK, so you also mentioned earlier that they're not kind of in the studies directly measuring the kind of shift from sympathetic to parasympathetic. What are they actually kind of looking at in these studies to help kind of or what are they looking at to show PEMF is affecting the nervous system?

Andy Smith 05:51 
One of the main tools is something called heart rate variability, or HRV. It's essentially a measure of the variation between heartbeats and it gives us an insight into how the autonomic nervous system is behaving. Generally speaking, higher HRV is associated with stronger parasympathetic activity, meaning better recovery and adaptability, whereas lower HRV is often linked with stress and sympathetic dominance.

Joshua Roberts 06:19 
Okay then, so is there kind of any studies then that looked at kind of PEMF and HRV?

Andy Smith 06:25 
Yes, and one study looked at 32 healthy males who were put through standardized physical stress tests and then exposed to PEMF at different intensities in a double blind setup. What they found was that after physical strain, PEMF helped acCELLER8 the recovery of heart rate variability, particularly in the very low frequency range, which is linked to autonomic regulation. So, essentially, after pushing the body into a more sympathetic fight or flight state through exercise, PEMF appeared to help the system return towards baseline a lot quicker. And that's the key link because when HRV recovers faster after stress, it's generally a sign that the body is shifting back towards a more balanced or parasympathetic dominant state. So, when you pair that with the other study we mentioned where PEMF applied around the neck targeting the vagus nerve showed improvements in sleep and reductions in anxiety in around 485 participants, you start to see both sides of the picture. One is showing the subjective side, how people feel, and the other is showing a more objective side, the physiological response through HRV. But again, it's important to keep this realistic and not blow it up. The effects of HRV studies were short-term and reduced once the PEMF stopped, so it's not a permanent shift or a switch being flipped. It's more accurate, say, PEMF may be supporting the body's ability to recover from stress and regulate the nervous system rather than directly forcing it into a parasympathetic state.

Joshua Roberts 08:01 
Yeah, exactly. So once again, more kind of promoting the state rather than directly flipping a switch that will kind of send you from one to the other. But is there any kind of other studies that looked at PEMF for HRV or kind of parasympathetic activity?

Andy Smith 08:15 
Yes and there's a more recent pilot study that looked at this in people with chronic musculoskeletal pain. They used a Papimi device which is a very high intensity device and won 30-minute session and measured both pain and HRV before and after. What they found was a significant reduction in pain scores likely due to the high intensity but also increases in HRV markers called RMSSD and HF power. These are commonly linked with parasympathetic or vagal activity. So that's interesting because it suggests PEMF may not just be affecting local pain but could also be influencing autonomic balance essentially helping the body to move towards a more recovery focused state. So the HRV evidence is useful because it gives us a more objective window into the nervous system not just whether someone feels more relaxed but whether the markers of autonomic balance are actually changing.

Joshua Roberts 09:15 
And this kind of shows more on kind of a biological level maybe why PEMF does help so much kind of for healing and recovery because it's actually shifting your body into a state that it can maybe help or can heal and recover a lot better than a state it might be in without the influence of the PEMF. But we've looked at kind of studies that looked at HIV and sleep but now kind of looking more at a cellular level, is there kind of any studies that looked at PEMF at a cellular level or even like a nerve kind of level.

Andy Smith 09:45 
Yeah there are some interesting early studies looking at this. For example one study looked at nerve regeneration in animals and found that PEMF exposure led to an almost double the rate of nerve regrowth along with increased expression of key signaling molecules involved in how nerve cells repair and communicate. So while that's not directly looking at stress or HRV it does suggest that PEMF can influence the biological processes that underpin how nerves function and recover. And when you zoom out the nervous system is fundamentally an electrical signaling system so the idea of an external electromagnetic signal could interact with that at a cellular level is quite plausible. So instead of thinking of PEMF as directly relaxing you it may be influencing the systems underneath that control how the nervous system behaves.

Joshua Roberts 10:40 
And yeah, that study looked kind of less maybe at kind of the parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system, but I thought it was a nice one just to kind of throw in and just to kind of show how PEMF is kind of interacting maybe more at a cellular level or kind of a nerve level and kind of maybe gives a little bit of insight on the mechanisms of kind of how PEMF is affecting the nervous system because when I was looking at the research, it was pretty limited when it comes to this. As you know, if you listen to a lot of the podcasts, we really try and keep these episodes more kind of grounded in the science side of things because you can kind of get quite lost quite quickly when it comes into the more anecdotal side of stuff. But we will actually touch on all of that now because as I say, the research was really limited, but really where most of these claims come from, as we said at the start, there is a lot more kind of hype around kind of the nervous system and kind of shifting you between the states. And so I thought it might be nice just to kind of get more of a kind of personal experience here, maybe to fill in kind of some of the question marks that people might have. So if you have a kind of in your experience with PEMF kind of seeing people have any changes in their kind of sleep, stress levels or anything maybe more related to the nervous system.

Andy Smith 11:51 
Yeah, 13 years in the industry of PEMF tells me that sleep is one of the first things that people notice, even if they're buying a device for like arthritis or a specific medical condition, a lot of the time they'll report back to us within the first week, that sleep has improved. And we can track this a lot easier now. So a lot of people are wearing wearables. So you're able to see your sleep scores. You're able to see how much deep sleep you've got and all that sort of thing. And that all relates back to HRV and how HRV is being measured in the body. Using, using these wearables. We also had, uh, Luke Campbell on the podcast recently, and he was talking about becoming mayor. So he's gone into a very stressful environment where he's not used to from background of being a professional boxer. So when he's had a stressful day, he uses PEMF therapy in the evening to help him relax and to sleep better that evening.

Joshua Roberts 12:42 
And yeah, and as we kind of know from earlier, improving sleep has a massive impact on the nervous system and can really help with the shifting between the states. And as you say, kind of, HRV is something that is really kind of being spoken about a lot more now with PEMF. And I feel like we've got a lot more customers recently that are kind of reporting that the HRV is getting better after using PEMF. I know you used PEMF to kind of influence your HRV. So for kind of people listening, how long roughly maybe should they expecting this to kind of take?

Andy Smith 13:15 
Yes, a good point because as I mentioned sleep can happen like almost instantly after one session. But HRV is very much like the conditions that we use in PEMF therapy for. So a lot of the time it's not an overnight thing. I actually did a study myself last summer. I was going through quite particularly stressful time at the office. And as I mentioned before, being the mechanic of this industry, you know, I don't always use PEMF therapy as strictly as I should because I'm up early, running a business, all that sort of thing. So when I was measuring my HRV, because of the stress I'm going through at work, I typically have about 30, which isn't great. So what I did was I made sure that I was consistently using the CELLER8 device, the CELLER8 full body package every single day for at least twice a day. So I'd use it in the morning on a higher frequency, in the evening on a lower frequency to implement sleep. And I managed to get my result from 30 consistently up to 40 within one month. So anybody that measures the HRV would know that changing your HRV does take time and getting it to a consistently higher level is something that happens over like a prolonged time. So doing that in a month and making sure I was being more consistent and also was doing a bit of breath work when I was doing my PEMF. So all these things help to regulate the nervous system and really improve HRV over time.

Joshua Roberts 14:40 
So you said that you were using it really kind of consistently for the month. And obviously you were tracking it via your boot. Maybe when you stopped tracking it and kind of went more back to your older kind of lifestyle, maybe using it less frequently, kind of every once a day or maybe every other day, what was the shift in your HIV? How did it kind of maintain that level or did it go down? What kind of happened?

Andy Smith 15:01 
Yeah. So my HIV does kind of go up and down and biggest problem for me is travel. So if we're doing travel for an exhibition or something, and it's a week long exhibition, obviously I usually bring my PEMF devices along with me, but you know, we're not magicians, we can be influenced by late nights traveling and that sort of thing. So my HIV can go down when I'm not using PEMF as frequently as I should be. So again, that's why when we also talk about on this podcast about using PEMF therapy consistently is one of the most important things to be doing.

Joshua Roberts 15:33 
Yeah, exactly. Because when it comes to PEMF, you say you reduce pain, for example, using a PEMF device and you're using it kind of consistently every day for two months and then you stop using the device. The pain, for example, might not completely stay at that level forever. It might start creeping back up, which is obviously the reason why you say you should use the PEMF more consistently because you'd be able to keep in this example, the pain at that level and even continually decreasing. Or like we were saying a minute ago, you might even be able to keep increasing your PEMF score or your HIV score if you keep using PEMF consistently. So yeah, PEMF is really heavily dependent on your consistency. Consistency is key. You should use it as consistently as you can. And a big part of using it consistently is actually how you apply PEMF. If you apply it in a complex way that isn't maybe optimal, it might be harder to kind of fit into your routine. And as you say, you might not use it as consistently. But when we're looking at the nervous system, how would you apply PEMF for the nervous system?

Andy Smith 16:35 
Yeah, so this is where it becomes a bit more practical, and there's a couple of ways to approach it depending on the device. If we go back to the vagus nerve study we mentioned, that was applied directly around the neck. So if somebody's specifically looking to target that area, a localized device makes a lot of sense. It gives you that ability to place it exactly where you want it and be more targeted. But in reality, we'd still usually lean towards a full body mat or ideally a system that gives you both options. The reason being a full body mat isn't just about one area, it's exposing the whole body to that electromagnetic field, which means you're potentially influencing the wider nervous system, circulation, and overall recovery state, not just one localized point. Then if you pair that with a localized applicator, you've got a lot more flexibility. You can use the mat on its own for more of a general full body session or use the localized device on areas like the neck if you want to be more targeted. And a lot of people will actually combine the two. So you might be laying on the mat for the sympathetic effect while also using a localized applicator around the neck at the same time. So it's less about being one better than the other, and it's more about having the flexibility to use both depending on what you're trying to achieve.

Joshua Roberts 17:58 
Yeah, exactly. You could say you have the option of both. Maybe you're on the go a lot. You can still apply the localized device to your neck, for example, if you're trying to influence your nervous system state. Obviously, that does rely on maybe the device being battery operated. Then when you get home in the evening, if you've got the time, you can then also go on your full body mat, get a lot wider coverage. And also, if you want, like Andy said, pair that with your full body mat and do kind of a two in one session. But now kind of looking more at the specification side of things. What intensities might we apply for kind of this?

Andy Smith 18:31 
Yes, with intensity, this is where people often think more is better, but it's not really how it works, especially when you're talking about the nervous system. In most cases, a medium intensity is ideal. So around, we mention it quite frequently, 10 to 100 gauss, which is where most of the research comes from. The reason for that is that you're not trying to overstimulate the system, you're trying to gently influence it. If you go too high, especially early on, some people are going to actually feel a bit wired or overstimulated, which is the opposite of what you're trying to aim for. So a good approach is to start somewhere in the mid-range, see how your body responds, and then adjust from there, because this is where it becomes quite individual. Some people respond really well to low intensities. Others might tolerate slightly high levels. So this is where a device that can do anywhere from about one to 100 gauss would be ideal as you have the flexibility to do either and can get the most out of your device. It's also worth saying that consistency tends to matter more than intensity here. Using it regularly, like we mentioned earlier, at a comfortable level is generally going to be more beneficial than using it occasionally at very high setting. So overall, think moderate intensity, build gradually, and focus on consistency.

Joshua Roberts 19:52 
And yes, as Andy says, consistency is key no matter what intensity you have. If you're not losing consistency consistently, uh, none of that really matters. But also, as Andy said, it's nice to have that kind of range and a range you can adjust in, um, just maybe some people are a little bit more sensitive to PEMF. They might find the hundred Gauss a little bit too intense. You can also kind of shift it down and have more of a kind of relaxing session or a lower intensity session, which might not stimulate certain people as much. It's more just about giving you the range and the options. Um, but then looking at the other side, which is a frequency, what kind of frequencies, uh, would we be looking at kind of here as well?

Andy Smith 20:31 
Yeah, frequency is one of the more interesting parts of this, but also one of the areas where people can easily overthink it. If we go back to the research we mentioned earlier, particularly than the Vegas nerve study, they tested a few different frequencies and found that around 16 Hertz seemed to have the most noticeable effect. So that gives us a bit of a reference point. And generally speaking, lower frequencies tend to be associated with more of a calming, recovery focused effect. In practice, a lot of people will use something in that rough range of about one to 20 Hertz range when they're aiming to support the nervous system, relaxation or sleep. But again, it's not an exact science where one number works for everybody. Some people might feel better, slightly lower. Some people slightly higher. And a lot of the devices out there now have preset programs that are designed around those kinds of ranges anyway. So the best approach is usually to start in that lower frequency range, see how you respond, and then adjust slightly if needed. And just like with the intensity, it's less about finding the perfect frequency and more about using something consistently that your body responds to well. But something you might want to add on to this is if you've ever tried breath work or meditation to reduce or relax the nervous system, adding a PEMF device can really, really influence the outcome of those. So I specifically use like breath work, meditation quite frequently when I'm using PEMF therapy. If you put a PEMF device into the theta range, which is anything from about five to eight Hertz, that's actually going to help influence the brain state, bring you into a meditative state and really help support that meditation. So it's just another practical way of using a PEMF device and enhancing things like breath work and meditation.

Joshua Roberts 22:27 
And this is why PEMF is becoming so popular because it's so easy to stack with such a wide variety of things like meditation and breath work. And it can really help enhance those things, obviously as well as kind of other technologies, like we're starting to look at more now, like red light and things like that. Uh, yeah, it's just a really good thing to use in kind of a stack. But, um, now kind of looking overall, looking at the PEMF and the nervous system, if someone could just have kind of one summary kind of overview on the whole thing, uh, yeah, what would that be?

Andy Smith 22:58 
So just to wrap it up, what we've really covered here is that PEMF isn't about flipping a switch in the nervous system or forcing you into a relaxed state. When you look at the research, whether that's the vagus nerve study showing improvements in things like sleep and anxiety, or the HRV studies showing the body recovering more efficiently after stress, it all points in a similar direction. It suggests that PEMF can support the body's ability to regulate itself rather than directly controlling it. And I think that's the key shift in how to think about it. Instead of looking at it as something that relaxes you, it's more about helping the systems underneath, like the autonomic nervous system, function in a more balanced and adaptable way. Because at the end of the day, the goal isn't to stay relaxed all the time, it's about being able to move between stress and recovery when you need it to. So really, PEMF seems to sit more in that space of supporting recovery, improving adaptability, and helping the body return to baseline more efficiently after stress. And I think that's a much more realistic and useful way to look at it.

Joshua Roberts 24:09 
Yeah, and exactly, I feel like the more and more of these bonus episodes we kind of do, that is kind of the overall kind of outcome of PEMF is really kind of helping regulate, optimise what your body is already doing rather than kind of externally, massively influencing it or kind of, yeah, flipping a switch. It's more about helping your body naturally move into these states more optimally and in more kind of a regulated way rather than as a say kind of, yeah, flipping on and off switches randomly as it pleases. But yeah, if you enjoyed this episode, please do make sure to like, subscribe, follow us on streaming, leave us a five-star review and while you're there also give us a comment whether you're on YouTube or streaming platforms on kind of any topics you'd like us to cover, any guests you'd like us to have on or any general feedback from the episode really helps us make our episodes a lot better while also obviously helping the algorithms of the respective platforms to push the podcast out to a wider audience. So it is massively appreciated.

Andy Smith 25:09 
Thanks for listening to another episode of the PEMF podcast.