Andy Smith 00:00 
A quick disclaimer before we begin. The PEMF podcast does not contain any medical advice and the content provided is for informational purposes only. If you have any health concerns, please visit a healthcare professional.

Welcome back to another episode of the PEMF podcast and today's guest is an absolute legend in the fight world. Former UFC middleweight contender, ultimate fighter, season one veteran, coach and all round warrior, Chris the Crippler Leiben. From growing up in chaos to becoming one of UFC's most unforgettable fighters and then nearly losing everything to addiction. Now several years sober and fully focused on his gym, we'll talk about his recovery performance and the tools that he's using today, which obviously includes PEMF therapy. Included in that we got Dry Sauna, other methods that keep him both, both him and his athletes performing and healing at the high level. Chris, just take us all the way back. Let's go back to your childhood. You grew up in Portland with a pretty rough upbringing. Can you talk about what your early life was and how fighting kind of came into that picture?

Chris Leben 01:05 
Yeah, I grew up on, you know, I grew up kind of on the wrong side of the tracks. I suppose is the nice way of putting it. Um, you know, single mother, um, there was a lot of, uh, drug abuse in my household as a child. Then I grew up around, you know, and my older brother was, uh, uh, was an asshole. So he kind of picked on me. He, he, he, he would have, you know, that he's the reason I became a USC fighter because he made me tough. He likes to tell the world that. But, uh, you know, um, yeah, I think that just kind of started, you know, the, the moving me in that direction. And ultimately I found, uh, you know, I started boxing in middle school and then in high school I found wrestling and to, you know, to be perfectly honest, you know, I think that being part of that wrestling team is the only reason I ever graduated high school at all. So, um, you know, the camaraderie of the team and, and, uh, and yeah, it just, it just happened to be, you know, I, you know, when he, when he came to wrestling and, and, and boxing, they happened to be things that, that I wasn't terrible at, you know, and, and, uh, so kind of to fast forward a little bit, you know, um, after high school, not exactly college bound. So, you know, I found my brother called me one day. He was, uh, he was used car salesman now. So he passed forward. He calls me since, Hey, Randy Couture and Matt Lindland are kicking the share of each other in the garage, you know, and, uh, that, that ultimately ended up being a team quest, which is, which is where I started. Right. Uh, Matt Lindland and Randy Couture were both world champions at the time. You know, so I just happened to, you know, grow up, you know, I just happened to grow up in the perfect spot. So I had this, you know, one of the first MMA gyms was in, uh, Rockwood, Oregon, which, you know, was my backyard. Um, not the most pleasant place, you know, the world champ, we're, we're being the crap out of each other and I'm in a mechanics garage. So, um, you know, I walked in, met my, met my coach Robert Paulus and kind of said, sign me up, let's go. You know, and, uh, for a kid, they kind of grew up with not a lot, you know, like I said, the kind of group on the wrong side of the tracks, you know, um, for me fighting was, you know, uh, once I had that first fight and people kind of gave me some respect or at least knew my name, I remember back then, this is this a hundred years ago. So back then there were some boards, you know, or people were online actually talking about me and to me. That was like, wow, these people know who I am and stuff. And I was hooked in that doubt that that was it. So, uh, from that point forward, from that first fight forward, I kind of, uh, just dedicated my life to this work.

Andy Smith 04:05 
Yeah, yeah. And was, was fighting ever in your family as well? I know you said that, you know, your brother used to pick on you and things, but is there any kind of history of fighting within the ranks, you know, granddads, anything like that? Or was this, this was a kind of new entity?

Chris Leben 04:18 
Yeah, I don't know. I don't really know. I don't know too much about my family. You know, I know, I know, uh, I know my mom and my mom's brothers a little bit. None of them, none of them were fighters. Um, you know, but that's, that's pretty, that's pretty much it. I couldn't, uh, couldn't tell you my genealogy couldn't go back very far. It's my, uh, what's that joke? My, my genealogy is kind of like a totem pole.

Andy Smith 04:46 
Yeah, because I mean you didn't have a big relationship with your father, did you? To grow an eye. No, not... Any kind of relationship with your father.

Chris Leben 04:55 
Not at all. Not at all. I didn't meet him until, uh, I think I was 22 years old, uh, trying out for the ultimate fighter the first time I met him, ended up meeting him at the, uh, the bar in the MGM. And he borrowed a hundred bucks from me. That was the first, that was the first time I met him.

Andy Smith 05:14 
the first time. Yeah. And you know, you're talking about your childhood again, you know, no father around, your mum was struggling with addiction at the time. You know, there must have been quite a bit of a chaotic upbringing at the time. Do you think that shaped, you know, the ultimate fighter that you become? Did that have an impact on, you know, the... Yeah. Either, you know, just getting into it or... Yeah,

Chris Leben 05:37 
Definitely, you know, you had to be tough in the world that I grew up in, you know, you really didn't want to show too much weakness, you know, and, you know, and besides that, I didn't really have, I didn't have many other options. Like I said, you know, I didn't have, I wasn't great in school, you know, college, college, you know, there was, there was no scholarships that were being thrown my way. Yeah. My mom certainly wasn't going to help me pay for school, you know, so, so, you know, playing was a, you know, for me, one, it was something I was good at, you know, two, it was a feasible option. I just happened to be in the right place at the right time where, you know, being where team quest had just started, you know, and, and three, you know, I, I liked it, I enjoyed it and it gave me a sense of accomplishment, you know, for a kid that's destined to being that thing that's destined to pump gas and be, you know, whatever, no, every, you know, my teachers and everybody else had more or less written off my feature. You know, I was, you know, learning disabled. I grew up, I was dyslexic. I didn't really learn how to, well, that's kind of a funny story in itself. I didn't really learn how to read or write much until after high school. It wasn't until my space came out, you know, trying to get laid that I figured out how to read and write, but I guess that shows you when the motivation is there. It's the right motivation is there. You can do anything, but yeah. And then, you know, to get that, that notoriety and stuff for me, you know, at the time, everything I did was, was spike was to prove, you know, that I was worthy to prove that I was somebody and not, not necessarily to everybody else. Probably a 20 year old Christine was trying to prove that to himself. I was trying to prove that I wasn't destined to be a loser. Like the rest of my family, like everybody else that I, that I came up with. If that, if that makes sense.

Andy Smith 07:42 
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, you know, you surrounded by those chaos and you almost don't want to become what was around you. So did you see fighting as more of a, you know, a route out of all of this?

Chris Leben 07:53 
You know, I suppose I didn't look at it that deeply that like, like at the time, at 20 years old, that it, that it was a root, root out. Ultimately it was a root out. Ultimately fighting saved my life for sure. You know, it, you know, I had to get, uh, it did a lot of things for me. I had to get, I had to sober up to fight, you know, which probably saved my life. I couldn't get in too much trouble if I wanted to fight, you know, I couldn't, you can't be in jail, you know? So, so it kept me from doing, uh, you know, a lot of the things that the other people in my neighborhood were doing, you know, um, truly, truly fighting, fighting saved my life. And, and at the time, I don't know that I thought of it as a way out as much as just a way to get respect. It wasn't until later that, you know, um, being in the gym, being around these other, uh, men that, you know, cause not having a father, you know, I had, you know, having Robert falls and ready to get to our Matlin and the, this generation before me of fighters, you know, those are the ones that I looked up to. Those are the guys that, uh, in a lot of ways were like father figures to me. You know, I didn't have anybody else to model who I was off of, you know? So by being able to model who I was off of these, these men, it took me out of the ghetto. It took me from the modeling who I was off my, my family and the people around me in my living situation, uh, which would have been not good.

Andy Smith 09:25 
So yeah just twenty two years old do you walked into a season one of the open with fire which which i actually watch personally myself actually love that series. I was quite young as i went when that came out but it was a great concept looking back there for you you know do you think that you were kind of ready for what that experience eventually became. You know use quite a big character on the show and you know what you prepared mentally for what you know what was to come from that.

Chris Leben 09:54 
You know, the first ultimate fighter, I think was kind of like, like I describe it to people kind of like, like basic training or something like, like you're, you're, you're glad you did it. Wouldn't want to do it again. You know, obviously it was great for my career. Um, was I ready or was I prepared for it? You know, uh, I think that's what made it awesome. Nobody was, nobody was ready. Nobody was prepared. Nobody knew what to expect, you know, and that's what made. The reality of it so, so wrong, you know, and, and me being a kid from the other side of the tracks where I'm from, you know, bringing, bringing that in, you know, a lot of people, I think fan wise, a lot of people really related to that. Personally, you know, for example, that's the first time I ever realized, maybe, maybe I drank a little too much, you know, maybe I had it. Maybe I had a small, uh, substance abuse issue. Um, you know, I remember going back with my friends and watching the ultimate fighter. And you know, when they do like the confessions or the guys in the room with the camera by himself, they're all going. Chris Liebens, I heard getting, getting blasted. He might be fighting tomorrow. You know, this is the biggest opportunity of his life. I don't know what he's thinking, you know, and to me, you know, I just drank and behaved like everybody else that, that I grew up. Around, you know, I, I, I drank no differently than anybody else in my family, you know, and, and with the friends that I grew up with, you know, like peeing on somebody's bag, you know, because they, you know, they pissed you off. That wasn't, uh, that wasn't unheard of, you know, that was just like the kind of stuff that you did, you know?

Andy Smith 11:43 
I mean, would you do it differently if you did it again, because, you know, at the end of the day, you, you know, won some amazing fights during the show, and maybe your behavior was was, you know, one of the reasons why you got so recognized from from the show. Yeah, you know, do you watch it now on cringe or do you know, is it kind of like

Chris Leben 12:03 
I try not to watch it, but when clips pop up, which they always do on my, on my, uh, Instagram feed or whatever, you know, I cringe, I cringe, but you gotta remember I was 21, 22. I'm, I'm, I'm about to be 45 now. This show was a long time ago. You know, I was, I was a different person then, you know, and a wife, a life in combat sports, a life in the gym was pulled me away from that person that I was and made me into the person that I am today. You know, um, which I, I'd like to think, you know, slightly more cultured, maybe a little bit more refined, not so rough around the edges. Uh, you know, um, you know, it was very, the show originally was raw, the format of it. And, and, you know, me, not just me, but everybody else that was on the show too, none of us knew what to expect. And we all kind of came in bringing, you know, our, you know, from bringing our neighborhood and our, our history and our past with us, you know, and I think that's what makes that, that series, not just even season one, but every one of those seasons, uh, great. I think, you know, there's at this point, it's now the longest running. I think cops is the only other reality show that's ever ran longer than the ultimate fighter. Um, you know, the success that it was amazing. And I think, you know, through the 28 series is, or what, however many there are. Um, I think every person would probably tell you there's things they would do differently, you know, if they were to go in now versus when they went in originally.

Andy Smith 13:43 
Yeah, yeah. And he mentioned just then that like, you saw, you know, watching it back, you kind of saw that, you know, you did have some issues with alcohol and things and it was probably being abused, you know, and your success after the show doesn't, you know, automatically mean that that's stability for you. You know, your massive rise came with, you know, some real darkness and all of that underneath and what we actually saw as like, as your career progressed, you drug and alcohol, you know, if anything got heavier, if you agree. But is there a point which you kind of realized, you know, this is out of control, you know, and there's a point for you where the, where the light bulb came on and, you know, you thought this has got to change.

Chris Leben 14:26 
I mean, yeah, you know, there were some there were some embarrassing moments. There were there were some hard moments in my in my in my career. You know, there there were some, you know, some things, you know, all ultimately for me, you know, I talk a lot about when whenever I'm talking to a, you know, a group or telling my story, you know, when it's really focused about recovery, I usually tell them, you know, about my last UFC fight. Now, for example, I I quit on the stool. I, you know, you know, ultimately, you know, if people if you ask anybody on the street, you know, and they want to tell you one thing about Chris Leiben, most of them will go, well, man, you know, that guy would die out there. You know, didn't matter if you won or lost, you know, if he was fighting, you knew it was going to be it was going to be a battle, you know. And in my last fight, I didn't even I just didn't get up to answer the bell. I wasn't knocked out. I wasn't choked out. You know, that that was extremely hard for me because, you know, of who I valued myself to be of who in my eyes, I told myself I was that I was this warrior that would die before they quit. You know, but, you know, the the little bit of redemption to that is, you know, ultimately down the road, you know, when I did get sober, you know, I came back and I had those five bare knuckle fights, four or five bare knuckle fights. And, you know, my I had I had one fight where, you know, in the first round, I got my orbital broken. You know, ultimately, I had like 30 some stitches here, 20 stitches here. They had to sew my nose back on, you know, and I fought from. Bell one to the fight, the judges gave the gave the fight to the other guy. But when people ask me what my most rewarding fight is, that's the one even even though I lost the fact that I was able to go back out there and show the world what kind of person Chris Leibman is, you know, when you took the drugs and alcohol away, you know, that that's, you know, in my opinion, what made me quit on the stool. You know, you know, that's not really who I was. That was that was that that other stuff, you know, talking and affecting my my behavior.

Andy Smith 16:45 
Yeah, because one of the things you see on the show is that you're you're able to drink one night and then get up and fight the next day. So did that almost seem like normal and make it easier and more normalized for you? Because, you know, if I have a skin for, you know, there's no way I'd get in an octagon the next day, you know, I'd be I'd be KO'd. So did that make it almost worse or easier for you to fall into this?

Chris Leben 17:09 
I think so. I think I romanticized it, I guess, you know, I, you know, like there was a there was a run on the show, you know, a test that we that we all did that Randy had us do. And I remember Randy told Dana nobody would pass this test. It was set up for failure. You know, and I drink a fifth of booze and then finish the run. And I was the only guy out of everybody. You know, you know, there were there was other guys on the show that were just taking at all their supplements and living living on asparagus and nothing else, you know. And, you know, they didn't finish the run. I finished the run because, you know, I I always like to tell people, you know, but my coach told me once, you know, and say, you know, what I when I couldn't run anymore, he said, I bet if a lion jumped out behind you, you could you could run a little faster, you know, and I always kind of tell myself that, you know, that it was just mental. It was it was it was all it was all just mental. And I think some of that is true. I think some of that is true. But yeah, definitely to answer your question, the fact that that I was able to perform, at least in my younger years, that I was able to perform, you know, I wasn't I wasn't causing any harm. I like to tell myself that story. Yeah.

Andy Smith 18:27 
Yeah. And at the time, you know, MMA in the UFC was like growing really fast. And, you know, you and the team of the ultimate fighters were kind of in the forefront of that. Do you think the support system was there, though? Because obviously, you know, a lot of the time when something's new or if there's not a lot of funding behind it, there's also not a lot of support in terms of someone getting hold of you and saying to you, you know, you're drinking is an excess and if you want to make a success of this. But also, if the support was there, do you think you would have listened to it at the time?

Chris Leben 19:00 
Yeah, I was going to say, you know, people tried, people, people, people tried for sure. And listen, when it comes to addiction, you're not ready until you're ready. You know, that's, that's, that's just the truth. I think I wasn't ready. You know, maybe, yeah, the, yes, the UFC was, was, was younger and yes, they didn't have as many tools as a company as they do now. But I certainly had people around me that loved me and cared about me, you know, and I had a lot of teammates. You know, Nate Corey is a great example. He was on the ultimate fighter with me. And that guy was in my ear every day going, what the fuck are you doing? You know, God, Chris, this is the biggest opportunity of your life. He didn't understand where I was coming from. He tried to help, but, you know, he didn't battle with addiction. So he didn't, he didn't understand, you know, what, what I was going through. And at that time, I maybe didn't know how bad the problem was. So I, I as well didn't understand that the damage that I was doing, not, not just to myself, but to everybody around me.

Andy Smith 20:06 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you said in one of the answers before that, you know, you think fighting saved your life. But, you know, when when you're going through all of this and, you know, there were suspensions for steroids, painkillers, you got arrested. You know, how bad did it get before it was the lowest point? And was there a moment that you thought, you know, I'm not actually going to make it out of this?

Chris Leben 20:29 
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they're, you know, a lifetime is a long time. There were several lowest points and there were several attempts at cleaning up. There were several attempts at doing some controlled drinking, you know, not, you know, I, you know, first started with saying, I'm just, you know, I tried it all, man. I'm just going to drink beer. I'm not going to drink liquor. I'm just going to drink liquor. I'm not going to drink beer. I'm not going to drink until after this time. I'm only going to drink on the week, you know, you name it. I did whatever, everything that I possibly could to try to manage, you know, because I didn't know how I was going to have fun without it. You know, that's, that's what I was taught. The way that I was brought up was that was the way that you enjoyed yourself, you know, otherwise you were, you were working or you were drinking there, you know, that those were, those were your two options in life. And that actually ended up being a battle for me. Because once I, once I did get sober, I had to figure out how to, how to relax, how to, how to calm down and, you know, without, without needing something without needing a manual off switch. If that makes sense, you know, for me, that alcohol was that it was that it's time to relax. It was that physical switch I could turn to, to switch gears. So eventually it became not even that I had to, I had to eventually got to the point where I had to drink just to, just to deal with people and, and social settings and everything else, you know. But I don't know, I think maybe I got to wait for your question a little bit.

Andy Smith 22:08 
No, that's cool. So, I mean, I come to the kind of, well, more like the end of your career in terms of the fighting, you know, Dana White called you and told you to retire as far as I understand from doing the research. How was that conversation and do you think that was almost a relief for you or was you not ready?

Chris Leben 22:31 
It was shortly after my flight, you know, maybe, uh, five days or a week after my flight, and I was still on such a low from, from, from having just quit and not gotten beaten, um, that, you know, I very simply said, yeah, okay, no problem. He would have, Dana White would have called me, uh, a month later, you know, I think this is, you know, my answer may have been different, but because he called me, you know, just four or five days after my fight, um, and I was still so depressed for my, my performance in my decision to not answer the bell, um, that I was just like, yeah, yeah.

Andy Smith 23:06 
So i mean looking back at that as well like the version of yourself then you know the one on drugs angry find demons. What would you say to him now is there something that you would say to me you think you would listen to.

Chris Leben 23:18 
I brought, you know, my answer would be, listen, you don't, it, you know, you can stop now or you can stop later. It's just the answer, it's just the question of how much pain do you want to endure, you know? And I like to tell people that I have a high pain tolerance, you know, and I think that when it came to getting sober, that was, it took, it took a lot. I really had to get beat down multiple times before I got to the point where I was like, this, this can't go on, this can't continue.

Andy Smith 23:55 
Yeah, yeah. So talking about your reinvention now, so we'll talk about more of the sobriety side of things you've you've been sober for over seven years now. So congratulations, first on that one. You know, it's a massive time to start stay away from that and and a huge achievement for you personally. What was the turning point for you? You know, what finally made you say, you know what, my relationship with alcohol and drugs is done. This is this is me now.

Chris Leben 24:22 
You know, at the end of my drinking career, it wasn't fun anymore. You know, I wasn't in the UFC anymore. I had gotten fired from a couple of different gyms in San Diego for for for drinking or doing things like slapping my boss. You know, stuff you can't do, you know, that I probably wouldn't have done if I was if I was sober and, you know, I'd also gotten gotten into some some trouble with the law, you know, and a lot of people that, you know, they'll tell you jail doesn't work. Well, listen, it'll work for me. But I got in there and I was like, this this shit sucks. I don't want to be here. You know, ultimately, I wanted to have a life, you know, I want I wanted to have a life after fighting. I thought that my life was was dead after fighting, you know. But, you know, I have seven years of continuous sobriety, but my journey started far before that. Like I said, even in my UFC career, I tried control drinking and different means to, you know, stop. I had some bouts of sobriety. But when I first took, you know, getting sober, seriously, was probably closer to like nine or 10 years ago. You know, I got a year and I got a year and a half and then I got a year drank for two days and then started over. So, you know, I think that, you know, we all have our our tipping point, you know, and you have to reach that tipping point and you have to do it on your on your own. You know, people that love you and care about you can give you all the advice in the world, but until somebody's ready, they're you know, they're they're just not they're not ready, you know, and thank God, in my case, that point came, that point came because, you know, I remember laying on my couch and just thinking like, like, my phone wasn't ringing. You know, nobody wanted to hang out with me anymore. I was too much of a liability. I wasn't in the UFC anymore, so I wasn't the cool. I wasn't the cool dude on the block, you know. And I was drinking by myself. And I was like, this is lame. This sucks. You know, I got to do something. So I started going through a there was hay eating down the seat of my house. And I would just go there. There was a noon meeting. I would go at noon by myself. I would just go. I go to the meeting. I'd sit there. I wouldn't say anything. And then I would go home, drink, drink some more and go to work. I did that for quite a while till I finally found a sponsor. I started working the steps in the program, got some sobriety, ultimately found another sponsor, the same sponsor I have today. Ultimately, he's one of my best friends in the whole world, you know, and we got to work, you know, and since that point, my life has been just absolutely incredible. You know, I have a seven year old in the living room that's never seen me drunk. You know, my body, you know, I had tried. I tried to go back and fight in Bellator, found out that I that I'd done all the drinking and everything else had done damage to my heart. Ultimately, was able through, you know, taken about a lot of herbs and everything else, but but also, you know, more important than what you put in is what you don't put in, you know, taking that bad stuff out, you know, slowly, but surely, you know, my my my heart improved and got better and better and better. So tell a member one day that the cardiologist was like, yeah, you are. You know, you're back to the level that any any man of your age should be at as far as your ejection fraction in your heart goes. And that that ended up being about the time that the BKFC or bare knuckle called me, you know, and I was back to training hard again. I was coaching and training hard and I was beating up all 20 year olds in the gym. I had found this new fire for the sport that I love for combat sports. I'd found this new, you know, this energy, you know, not being hung over. And, you know, I loving coming in and training and, you know, they offered me some fights and, you know, I was able to go back. And I think I had four fights. Three of them were first round knockouts, you know, and one of them was the five round war that I talked about, you know. So not that you can ever right or wrong, but, you know, I was able to kind of rewrite. the ending of my combat sports career. You know, and for me, that was huge. For me, that was huge. And then after that, you know, um, it was able to find people that trusted me, you know, and, and, and helped me open, open my own business. So I have, um, a gym here in San Diego, a striving gym where we do boxing, kickboxing, jiu-jitsu, you know, we've got a, we've got a couple hundred members, uh, you know, and that's, that's like a, uh, take my family, you know, maybe I didn't have the biggest family growing up, but you know, I have a huge family now. Not only do I have my friends that are in recovery and all those people I hang out with, but I have, uh, I have my gym and I spend every day trying to help people, whether they're, uh, whether they're just trying to lose weight or they want to be the next world champion, you know, they're, they're in the gym. They're sweating, you know, and I try to sneak in my little motivational talks, you know, into the technique. Um, you know, and, and last but not least, uh, you know, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a referee and a judge professionally for both boxing, uh, and MMA, you know, so like, like weekend before, I guess it's Monday now. So weekend before last I worked with Jake Paul fight, you know, um, I'm, I'm, continuously at the, at the apex for the UFC, you know, um, I get to watch the best fights in the world and, and they trust me enough to decide who, who the winner is, you know, um, and, and that that's a big responsibility. That's a big job. So I've been able to earn all that trust that I lost. I've been able to earn it all back, you know, and, and not only that, but because of everything that I went through, it puts me in a unique situation to where. When I'm in the gym and I'm talking to these 20 year old kids, they listen to me, you know, when, you know, when I'm out and I talking to people that are struggling with substance abuse, maybe they won't listen to their counselor or their probation officer, but you know what? They, they listen to me, you know? Um, so it gives me that opportunity to, uh, to give back. You know, um, not, not that, like I said, not that you can ever right or wrong, but, uh, you know, if I wouldn't have gone through everything that I went through, I wouldn't be where I'm at today. And yeah, that little fact. Add some re I guess reassurance, you know, to me, add some, add some reassurance, you know, that, uh, that I'm on, that I'm on track, you know, and, uh.

Andy Smith 32:01 
Yeah. So, you know, sobriety's bought you a lot of different things, not just in the fighting coaching, but, you know, in, in personal life and all sorts of things. So it's, you know, it's, it's really good to see you've got to that point that you are now kind of reading forward and talking about the space you've created, but also, uh, the recovery and healing side of this podcast, um, it'd be good to know actually kind of what your recovery looked like when you were fighting. So, you know, we, we will get onto what you're doing now and how you're helping other fighters and your gym and stuff. But did you have a bit of a protocol back when you were fighting? Did you use tools? Did, was there something you kind of swear by?

Chris Leben 32:38 
Throughout my career, you know, you know, luckily, you know, early on I had, I had ran Randy Couture who was, uh, you know, like a mentor to me and he was my coach and, and, and he was already 47 years old and fighting. So he took really good care of himself and, you know, um, you know, so I, I had that too. Uh, I, I got to watch him and I got to, I got to begin to emulate him and see how he kind of, what, what he did to keep the car on the road, you know? And, uh, so, so early on in my career, it was, it was, it was really diet, you know, diet, diet was kind of, kind of the main thing, but, but I was never, uh, never good at it. Like my, like I would, I would let myself get so fat in the off season that, that literally my training camp sometimes would be, would be more about making weight than actually preparing for the fight. So it wasn't until years later, I realized that how important keeping that weight down was so that my number, so that I could feel good when I was training and I was preparing for the fight, like my output could be higher. Um, you know, it's hard, it's hard to have much of an output when you don't have any calorie input.

Andy Smith 33:51 
Yeah sure so coming on to the pmf and. Was it during your life how did you first come across pms cuz everyone's got a kind of a story is how to stumble across it whenever i use to themselves you know, was it was that during your friend career or after you kind of stepped away from the competing.

Chris Leben 34:12 
You know, I wish it would have been around for me in my, in my fighting career a little more. Um, you know, I, I know that the PMF kind of has been around for a long time. It kind of, um, there was a guy, a strength conditioning coach that, that I worked with named Joel Jamison, uh, who, who was the first one to introduce me to it. And I, and I, I used it a few times, a few times to him with great results. But, um, back then there, there were no units that were, uh, recently priced, you know, it was, it was, uh, it was, it was a hard tool to get your hands on.

Andy Smith 34:47 
Yeah sure so what were the first things you notice is what we using for the injuries or was it more like performance.

Chris Leben 34:55 
So I originally in injuries and I, cause I'm talking about 20 years ago, you know, 15 years ago, um, later on when I came back to, uh, BKMC and you know, I was a little older, a little wiser. Um, I had, uh, what's called the earth pulse, I guess, you know, are you familiar with that, that unit? Yeah. It kind of goes, goes under your bed when you sleep and that's supposed to help charge everything up. And, and, and, but, but not, not so, so much for specific injuries is, you know, um, but I, but I use that, I use that and, and I thought, I thought it helped me sleep. I thought it helped me sleep quite a bit better. Um, I had, uh, I had the PMF under my bed along with, with a bunch of magnets, you know, so, so that really kinda, you know, you're probably better explaining all the science to what's going on there, but, um, but that, that really, it helped my sleep. It helped, it helped my recovery as well. Um, also, uh, grounding sheets, grounding sheets are something that, that I've used. Um, you know, and now, now I have, uh, I have an aura unit, uh, here, here at home that I use regularly.

Andy Smith 36:08 
Yeah, yeah. And so initially using it for sleep and that sort of thing, did you use it on any injuries and did you find that, you know, it kind of like sped that process up compared to what you

 would, you know, the ways you would normally heal.

Chris Leben 36:22 
So as far as the injuries, you know, yeah, I have, uh, I got, I got, I got a lot of them.

Andy Smith 36:29 
Actually, yeah, not surprising.

Chris Leben 36:32 
You know, my, my knees are good. Everything else is bad in my body. Easier just to tell you what's left. That's good. Surprisingly enough. I got through my career with, uh, with no knee surgeries, uh, which, which is pretty rare, but you know, I got a bad hip. I got two, two shoulders that are, that are messed up. Um, C one through C seven are all herniated in, in my neck, you know? Uh, so, so I'm, I'm frequently using PMF for, for all the, all those areas.

Andy Smith 37:02 
and you've got a high intensity device at your gym are you what are you using it mainly for for your fighters are you getting them to use it daily or is it more of a maintenance performance or again are you kind of like really sticking it to them when they're using it for injuries

Chris Leben 37:17 
We use it mostly for injuries. A couple of guys went out and got in units. But again, they're still not cheap, you know, even an at-home unit. So the guys that can afford when I've gotten in home units, it can use it more, uh, more for, for maintenance, but, but injuries, injuries, usually guys get hurt, uh, on the mat and we'll get them right on it. You know, they'll come, they'll come right off the eye. I just hurt my ankle. You know what I mean? We're going to come right off the mat and put it, put them on that, uh, almost immediately.

Andy Smith 37:43 
Yeah okay cool and we saw on your instagram post you know you kind of saying that we have any of these elite gems that sort of thing you know like. Why haven't they got a pmf device because it's not invasive it's you know and and is that still how you look at it you know these this is a therapy that should be everywhere.

Chris Leben 38:02 
I think so. I think I 100 percent, you know, it's, yeah, you know, there's no, you don't have to continually buy new stuff. You know, you get one machine, you know, and you're set. You can take care of all your athletes that way. Definitely an investment that's worth, you know, any gym is worth them making that investment for sure.

Andy Smith 38:27 
Yeah, yeah. And the high intensity one you got your gym tends to be the more expensive device so you still using your low intensity ones for sleep and that sort of thing or you you kind of just stick into one now.

Chris Leben 38:37 
I just stick to one now. Well, my low and denser when I loved it and then what happened is it broke. I got another one and then that one ultimately ended up breaking a year later. So I'll probably have to go out and get a third one.

Andy Smith 38:53 
Well I'll have to talk to you about the seller right, we'll send you one of those.

Chris Leben 38:58 
It works great. I'll have to ask you which product you recommend best for the low intensity or when it comes to mats and whatnot, something that I can use for a longer duration of time because they are there for the regular world, they're expensive.

Andy Smith 39:18 
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And the combination of both low and high intensity is also really beneficial. So, yeah, don't worry. We'll hook you up. We'll sort you something out after this one. So, something else, you know, with the PMS side a little bit, you've talked quite a lot about is sauna. You use a portable dry sauna that gets up to 185 degrees Fahrenheit. But we saw that you weren't very impressed with the infrared one. What for you, Kalani, clenched it? Why do you prefer the traditional sauna over the infrared?

Chris Leben 39:51 
Well, all the studies are on, uh, you know, dry soda and they're, they're, they're, you know, they're, they're talking about, it's actually, I was at a barbecue the other week and I ran into, uh, Southern California, you know, I ran into Dr. Rhonda Batring and yeah, I sat there and talked to her for 40 minutes about creatine. Um, but a lot of, she, she's on Jill Rogan talking a lot about a lot of the studies, you know, and, and, oh, you know, when it comes to the heat shock proteins and everything, you know, and all that stuff is, uh, all those studies are done, you know, the, uh, the, the drop in all cause mortality, everything else that's all done on dry saunas, you know, infrared saunas as best I can tell is just theory. It's just, it's just theory. A these waves go deeper into you. We think they, uh, they, they burn the, the, the fat a little better because they go in week, but we don't really don't know, you know? So, so in, in, in my opinion, uh, you know, why wouldn't you go for the tried and true, you know, option, the one that's been tested and verified.

Andy Smith 40:55 
Yeah exactly i think where the infrared is such a new technology like you say this it's lacking a lot more. Evidence near peer reviewed results and what sort of things i.

Chris Leben 41:05 
And i'll speculate here but i think ultimately down the road where you're gonna find is. They're gonna have different sets of benefits you know so you may end up wanting to use both. You know but but you're gonna use them for different things i think.

Andy Smith 41:21 
Yeah, yeah, sure. And outside of PMF in sauna, are there any other tools that you're using regularly that you swear by either on yourself or on your on your, you know, fighters and that sort of thing?

Chris Leben 41:32 
Yeah, I got a few I got a few others. I got a behind the sun. I got an ice bath over here. I hate it.

Andy Smith 41:40 
Doesn't everyone!

Chris Leben 41:41 
I absolutely hate getting in, but I love getting out, you know what I mean? I love getting out and when it comes, I think for me, the ice bath, um, instant, you know, it's instantly, I feel better. You know, if I go out at my age and I do a bunch of jiu-jitsu, I had, I had opened that for fourth of July. I did, I think like 10, you know, six minute rounds, got home, couldn't barely walk. You know, I, I flop in that thing for four minutes and, you know, I get out and all of a sudden my, my neck's turning again, you know, that inflammation just gets sucked out. Um, I think that, that, that is a phenomenal, and I just got a, uh, I got a new massage chair as a matter of fact, um, you know, say what, say what you want. But I think there, I think there's a lot of benefits when it comes to, uh, cert, cert, not to, you know, circulation, everything else. I think massage is great. Um, one problem that I have with my busy schedule is that scheduling a massage and, and taking an hour out of my day to drive somewhere and go in, uh, you know, it can be, can be very difficult, um, having, you know, uh, really high quality massage chair at home allows me that I can just come home and I can jump in that thing for, if I got 20 minutes in my day, I can, I can, I can jump in that and get some, some sense of relief.

Andy Smith 43:09 
That's good and that's the thing a lot of the time it comes down to time what people got to put forward for these type of therapies and technologies. Last question really for me is you know we you've had a couple of close calls now with me no quite serious heart condition you've been diagnosed with you know you got covered pretty badly. Does that play into how serious you recover now you know is it as it changed the way you take care of your body longer term.

Chris Leben 43:38 
It does, you know, it does, you know, I've learned over the years to be gentler and a little more patient, you know, with my body, something that's been hard for me, especially after a career of fighting, you know, when you've got a date on the calendar and you got to be ready, you just, you block things out, your shoulders hurt, you know, oh, well, and for me, that's kind of where a lot of these painkillers came in, you know, shoulders hurt, I don't have time to let it heal, you know, I'll take this and I'll go get through training camp, you know, I've had to learn to try to listen to my body, you know, sometimes it says, we're not training hard today, you know what I mean, sometimes it says today, today isn't the day to do, you know, heavy, heavy dead lifts, you know, even if it's on the calendar, you know, it says, maybe you're just on the aerodyne for 30 minutes today, you know, I always do something, I do something every day, you know, no matter what, but what changes is the intensity, what changes is the intensity of what I'm doing, whether, you know, sometimes it might just be, you know, light jiu-jitsu rounds, you know, light rolls, sometimes might be lights barring every once in a while, they're few and far between now, but every once in a while, you know, I'll want to go hard, you know, and I know, it's a sacrifice, I know if I go hard, if I'm going to go out and I'm going to do five hard jiu-jitsu rounds, with a tough D1 wrestler, you know, I know I'm going to be beat up the next couple of days, same thing with striking, if I'm going to go out and do hard striking rounds, I can do it, you know, I just can't do much the next couple of days, so it's a trade-off, so I have to constantly find that balance, you know, between keeping the car on the road, you know, performing and, you know, what I can and can't do.

Andy Smith 45:34 
No, cool. Thank you so much for that. And thanks for your time today, Chris. For anyone that wants to reach out with you if they want to train with you, learn more about recovery methods, or just follow what you're doing, where's the best place for them to find you?

Chris Leben 45:49 
Easy as Instagram, you know, Chris Leib and MMA on Instagram. They can reach out to me, uh, uh, w w dot, uh, the training center SD dot com is, is my gym work. The gym is on, uh, YouTube. It's on Instagram. It's, it's on Twitter. It's on, you know, every, everything else. So if you guys look up the training center, if you want to come in and train, um, but particularly if you want to direct message me or something, like I always say anybody that's struggling with recovery, you know, um, I will give them the best advice possible. Um, just DM me, DM me. Uh, I will get back to you. It might take me a day, but I will absolutely get back to you and give you the best advice possible.

Andy Smith 46:35 
amazing. And thanks for listening to today's episode. If you've enjoyed it, please subscribe, leave us a five-star review on your favorite stream platform, or if you're listening to, it really helps us get more great guests like Chris Lebenn to share their knowledge with you and we can get more on here. So thanks again for your time, Chris. Awesome. Thank you, man.

Chris Leben 46:54 
Thanks for having me.