Andy Smith 00:00 
A quick disclaimer we begin, the PEMF podcast does not contain any medical advice and the content provided is for informational purposes only. If you have any health concerns, please visit a healthcare professional. Welcome back to the PEMF podcast and today we're joined once again by best-selling author and leading expert in the field of PEMF, Bryant Meyers. It's great to have you back on, Bryant.

Bryant Meyers 00:27 
It's great to be back. I look forward to this show. It's a very important topic talking about frequency

Andy Smith 00:32 
And you're actually our first guest with the third episode under your belt. So, anybody listen to this? Hey, it's a new achievement. Anyone listen to this? You don't need to go necessarily stop this episode as it is and reel back to the first couple of episodes because we're talking about a different subject what we covered last time. But after this, obviously, feel free to go back. And in our last episodes, we covered waveform, slew rate and intensity. But today we're going to be focusing on frequency and resonance, which is probably one of the most talked about and most misunderstood parts of PEMF. So we're going to break that down properly. But first, let's start with a quick fire round for this time. Yep, let's do it. We'll go through some of the quick fire questions, a couple of word answers, and then we will break them down a bit more in the further on in the episode. So let's kick this off. All right, let's do it. One claim in PEMF that you think is just flat out wrong?

Bryant Meyers 01:27 
That you need high intensity to penetrate deep in the body.

Andy Smith 01:30 
If you had to pick one, what matters most in a PEMF device? Waveform, intensity, or frequency?

Bryant Meyers 01:36 
Waveform.

Andy Smith 01:37 
What's one thing that you would change about the PEMF industry overnight?

Bryant Meyers 01:42 
Get rid of all the crystal gemstone multi-therapy mats if we could.

Andy Smith 01:46 
Yeah, I'm wholeheartedly with you on that one. What's one belief about PEMF you think needs to disappear completely?

Bryant Meyers 01:53 
Um, again, that you need high intensity to penetrate. I mean, I think that's a big myth.

Andy Smith 01:58 
What's one spec people focus on this actually doesn't matter as much as I think could be the same as the last one?

Bryant Meyers 02:04 
Yeah, it's intensity and secondarily frequency just for the wrong.

Andy Smith 02:08 
What's one spec people don't pay enough attention to?

Bryant Meyers 02:12 
Slew rate and the coil size and total area of the coils.

Andy Smith 02:16 
What's the biggest red flag you see when it comes to looking at PEMF as a product?

Bryant Meyers 02:21 
If there's any device that has crystals or gemstones in it, that's a huge red flag. I've yet to find one good PEMF device with crystals or gemstones until I can be proven wrong. I mean, it's possible someone will make a good mat, but until then, that's the great.

Andy Smith 02:37 
Do you think some PEMF devices are more marketing than science?

Bryant Meyers 02:42 
Um, I think probably a majority are, I mean, but there's still a lot that are based on science, but I think it's a big problem that marketing is what kind of pushes most PEMF devices in the industry.

Andy Smith 02:54 
Great great answer so let's move on to a bit of a subject around testing cuz I know that you've been doing testing once we spoken recently, you've been you know actually doing your own independent testing on a bunch of different maps i think you said to me you spent like over a hundred thousand dollars on PEMF mats too.

Bryant Meyers 03:14 
Yeah, I have, and it's in three months of testing now with the help of an engineer. I mean, I've, you know, David Cherry, he's a brilliant engineer. He's just got equipment that I don't have. You know, like he's got a robotic arm that can test 7, uh, 7,500 measurements across the mat, like a different elevation. So it's been, but I've kind of guiding everything. So I've, I've talked to him almost every day for the past three months.

Andy Smith 03:38 
And why are you doing this test and because do you think the industry meet needs additional testing do you think it is clarity.

Bryant Meyers 03:46 
I think it's kind of crying out for a need for testing. Cause nobody, I mean, I know you guys do your own testing and people like Bob Dennis does testing, but most companies don't. I mean, Steve does his own testing, but I find very few companies are showing any kind of testing report, any kind of, you know, any just way to show that what they're saying is what they have. And on top of that, they're not promoting the right parameters in any way, in my opinion. But do we even know the intensities that they're listing are actually the intensities? I mean, we're just taking their word for it.  

Andy Smith 04:23 
Yeah my next question really what you know when we say testing people might be thinking we're testing the fabric or you know what is it you're actually testing and and what do we need to be more what needs more clarity in this market.

Bryant Meyers 04:36 
Well, really it's just testing that whole, if you, if you imagine a PEMF full body mat, there's like a big cloud of energy, electromagnetic energy or top or cross that mat, though we want to get a picture of that energy, like, like what is this? And for me, it's, it's not just the intensity, but that's one of the things that we test is what's the intensity at zero, one, two, three, four, five. So we can kind of see like a gradient of energy, right? And then we want to test what I think is more important, the slew rate. Because the slew rate or the Faraday induction is what's transferring energy wirelessly to, from the mat to the body, it's not the intensity. And a good example of this is the wireless charging plates that you put your phone on, right? So you can charge your phone wirelessly and guess what's charging your phone. It's the slew rate of the coils inside the mag, the Apple mag charger or whatever wireless charger you're using, right? So it's not intensity. You could have a 10,000 Gauss magnet and it's not going to charge your phone. You can have, it doesn't matter how much intensity you have, you have to change that intensity to transfer the energy. So this is just physics. This is not even debatable. Intensity has nothing to do with transferring energy to your body. So slew rate is really the main thing that we're trying to test. So like, because again, it's, it's how energy is transferred wirelessly. So I mean...

Andy Smith 06:01 
I think that is a point because people that are using those wireless chargers, I don't particularly use them with my phone, but, um, people that are using multiple different versions, you have them in your car, you have them on your desk and that sort of thing, and they charge the phone at a different, different intensity rate, you know, uh, uh, at different speeds. Yeah. And it's a good analogy. I've never thought about that actually. And it's, you know, that's because of, you know, some of them are more expensive and they're going to be designed a bit better, have a faster slew rate, maybe longer and, and you know, as we try to achieve it, they're charging the battery a lot quicker.

Bryant Meyers 06:35 
Exactly. So I tell people like when you plug your phone in, that's like microcurrent therapy, you're directly adding current to the phone where the wireless charging plates are inductive coupling or like using Faraday's law of induction, which is what slew rate encapsulates, right? So that's how energy is transferred. This is again, not debatable. You need to either use magnetic or you can use resonance. We'll talk about resonance. It's another way to transfer energy wirelessly, but slew rate, as we'll see, kind of covers it all because when you have a high slew rate, you'll get a broad spectrum of frequencies. And we'll get into that a little bit later. But as far as the testing goes, we're trying to test the intensity at different elevations, the slew rate at different elevations. We're testing the spectrum analysis through spectrum analysis. We're testing the Spectral content. So like what are the range of frequencies in a PEMF signal? And this is something that is reported in some PEMF studies. So again, we'll get into that a little later. And with the help of a robotic arm and a very kind of a labor of love with David and spending all this money to get all these mats, we were able to get these accurate 3D pictures. We call them magnetic x-rays. And you can see some pictures at bryantMeyers.com forward slash testing. And you can see kind of and these images are not graphical illustrations by an illustrator. These are actual from measurements using MIT software to integrate all the numbers into a really a good picture of what the magnetic field kind of looks like over the top of a mat. And I mean, it's not going to be perfect, but it's the most accurate that I've ever seen. And I don't see anybody else has ever done anything like that. You know.

Andy Smith 08:25 
I've seen some of the images that you guys have produced and they, it's a really good visual interpretation because, you know, we talk about these crystal gem mats and they have like four of those little rods inside them at the top end of the mat. But, you know, to the untrained person, they don't really know what that, what that means or what that looks like. So when you see these, um, tiny little magnetic fields coming out of the mat and reaching just maybe a couple of centimeters from it and that's it. Yeah. It's, it really helps to visualize that. So, you know, I hope that's something that you guys can do with a whole multitude of PEMF mats, you know, including CELLER8. You told me you're going to do some proper, proper intrusive testing on CELLER8, which is great. Um, you know, the industry needs all of this.

Bryant Meyers 09:09 
Yeah, and in the crystal mats, it's when you do the slew rate mat, because we have the maps of both the intensity and the slew rate. And some of the crystal mats, the intensity looks, oh, I mean, it's not great, but it's like little tiny dumbbells of energy over their coils. But then when you look at the slew rate, it's just almost non-existent because they have a 8.3 millisecond rise time because they're just using six yards. Right. So the slew rates is dismal and it only covers a little tiny area. So this is why we also or I kind of dissected these mats and measured the coils and using a CAD software program made very meticulous, accurate, you know, kind of images of the coil layout. So that way you can see the total coil area, because what we found was that the energy from the measurements is mostly right on top of the coil and in the middle of the coil. You don't get much in between the coils. I mean, you get some, but, you know, the magnetic field lines diverge outside of a coil and they reinforce in the middle. So you don't get a whole lot of of energy in between the coils. I mean, again, compared to what you're getting inside the coils and right, especially right on top, you know, usually the hot spots on a mat are going to be the right on top of the coil. So so so we took the middle measurements like by hand. But then this this this kind of robotic arm took seventy five hundred measurements at one, three and five inches. And then MIT software extrapolates and interpolates that and makes like a. So it's that's why I said it's a good approximation. It's not perfect, but this software is pretty I mean, AI, you know, type of interpolation extrapolation is pretty pretty good. So it can it's like you're taking three points and it can kind of map out where the rest of the points are going to be. Even though it might not be exact, it's still very close. And again, it's seventy five hundred measurements. So this is a lot of data points, right? To give like it's like every inch is getting measured across the mat. At these and the elevation.

Andy Smith 11:18 
And how does this translate in terms of people looking for systems because, you know, I always tell people to, you know, if they're talking to another manufacturer to ask them for, you know, if it's been tested and that sort of thing. But there's a particular line which I absolutely hate on websites and it says third party tested. You know, for me, that's third party tested could mean anything. You know, it could be testing the fabric on top of the mat for VOCs or something completely circus, something completely different. For you, you know, what should people be looking for? And if the manufacturer doesn't give the slew rate or anything like that, what does that tell you about that manufacturer?

Bryant Meyers 12:00 
Well, I mean, a lot of manufacturers don't even, I don't even know if they know what slew rate is or, I mean, the menu, maybe the manufacturers do, but the companies that work, that, that sell the product a lot of times don't. So they're just usually promoting intensity and frequency is kind of what, and then they, then they get into all these gimmicks where, oh, we have these special frequencies for all these different things and our, our waveform is special and patented and nobody else has our waveform. You know, we have, we call our system PEMA or PEMI instead of P-E-M-F because it's so better than everybody else that we had to come up with a different name. It's just all marketing. It's just, there's no legs to stand on. I mean, and then some of the comp, I won't name names, but some of the companies say, oh, we have all this research, but there are a lot of white papers done by scientists that either develop the product or work for the company. I wish I could name it. I mean, but, um, but they claim that, oh, we're the only one that has all this, but you actually, and I did go through some of these companies that kind of just lean on what they call his research. And it's a lot of papers by, um, I'll just say Dr. I won't say the product, but Dr. Fisher, for example, you know, he's got all these studies, but you know, he developed the product. So it's like, well, that's, and it's not like they're published studies in like a reputable journal. I mean, there's a few in there, but some of them with one company actually showed negative results that they never, they never want to show that study. But, but as far as like, you know, the parameters that they're promoting, it's just like you say, third party testing. Let's see that third party test. I'd like to see it. I mean, can you send me it? Can you send it to me? That's what I'd ask. And then what are you, what are you testing? Because if energy is only transferred by slew rate and magnetic resonance, then you really should know what the slew rate is in the Spectral content of the signal is, you know, intensity, again, you could put, you can have the strongest magnet in the world. It's not going to charge your phone. So the intensity, intensity is for measuring static magnets like Gauss. I tell people Gauss and Tesla. Those are measurement units for static magnets, not PEMF. PEMFs are dynamic changing magnetic fields and you need things like, you know, repetition rate, uh, Tesla per second, which is slew rate, Spectral content, which is the bandwidth. These are the things that categorize or, or, um, that, that will tell you what a, you know, a PEMF or best sort of describe a PEMF signal and the wave shape. You know, let's, let's see, like an oscilloscope, um, you know, um, picture of the waveform. Cause I've looked at a bunch of square waves now. And now again, you're never going to see a square wave. You know what your signal looks like. Cause you've seen it, right? It's a rounded off kind of triangle wave. Now in the current, it is an actual square wave. But because of the induction, it's the induction in the coils that rounds it out. So, so nobody's got a square wave. That's other that.

Andy Smith 14:58 
I was interested actually when when when our engineers you know when I first saw our wave yeah you know I was I know that that's not ours it's ours is a square wave and they said no no no that's you know that's what physically looks like is actually more than more like a sawtooth and in fact you know it's um

Bryant Meyers 15:15 
The system I recommend, it looks like that. Steve, we measured Steve Burdett's Nextean. His thing, his looks like that. Uh, Robert Dennis's ICES, which is a small coil, has a 160 Tesla per second slew rate. His looks the same way. I mean, it's just, it just comes from when you look at the electric field and the voltage, it's a square wave in the current. But when you put that into the coils and when you measure the field, because of the induction in the coils and the resistance, it, cause it, it takes, it's like, it's e to the minus whatever RC, whatever over T or something like that. So that you can't get a straight up, it's impossible. And then the larger the coil and the more coils you have in series, the greater your inductance. So it's always going to round it out. Now I did notice like, you know, measuring like our local applicant, the Spectra I work with and your seller rate, local applicator, it is straighter. So it instead of, so when you, when you have like less inductance, instead of rounded, it's still like a triangle. It looks like a triangle, but it goes a straighter line because it's kind of getting up there quicker where, you know, when you have more inductance, it's slower to reach its peak, but still the key thing is, is when you take the slope of that and again, some, some are rounded out like this and some are rounded out more like this. So the slew rate is the energy is from the bottom to the top, or you can take the slope towards the bottom. Like are you were seeing like on your lower intensities, you were getting a higher slew rate because the slope is higher towards the bottom. So if you kind of cut it off, you're going to have a steeper slope at the bottom, you know, and then toward. So, but anyway, you can take like the average slew rate from the bottom to the top, and that's really giving you a good indication of how much induced voltage is created, which is also the area cut into play there. Um, and I've realized that even, go ahead. I'm sorry.

Andy Smith 17:11 
I was gonna say, if anybody's watching this podcast, what I'll do is I'll get Josh to put on the CELLER8s square wave as to what we put into the device, versus what you get physically out of the device. So just as a visual representation, you know, it's a bit like saying.

Bryant Meyers 17:29 
I'm going to send you through email an image where it shows you the how a square wave becomes this rounded signal and it's just it's just basic you know how what happens and I got four examples here the CELLER8 Nextion unit the Spectra and ICES which is all the same type of pulse generated square waves that look like square waves on the current but they all end up doing the same thing in fact the i1 the i1 signal which is used in this big it's called the cres which is cartilage repair and electromagnetic stimulation like group it's a huge group of studies they've done all these studies on cartilage repair you know they're actually the 15 gauss that Dr Pawluk talks about comes from their group of studies you know and their signal their i1 is the same it looks the same type of thing so they're using the so whenever you have a pulse generator capacitor discharge that's kind of what you see where the function generator square waves look look a little look a little different it's kind of they're kind of a little wonky at times it's like what's that it's it's like this little thing but um anyway um i'll send you some examples of that because just don't yeah your your signal is fine that's just what happens when you put it in you.

Andy Smith 18:42 
And that's it you know just to just to you know done this right down it's a bit like saying a car is stopped and then it's 60 miles an hour then it's stop then it's 60 miles an hour. If you you need to take into consideration the acceleration in between and if you imagine that as a diagram. That's kind of kind of what you get but anyway we've we've got really lost in slew rate really quickly because we're both really passionate about it so. Move on yeah let's move on yeah. Let me let me really back in and let's talk about frequency so just break this down as simple as you possibly can but what is frequency when it when we talk about PEMF.

Bryant Meyers 19:19 
Yeah, frequency in PEMF is really misunderstood because people just think, oh, it's just one, we have 10 Hertz, right? And we got 10 Gauss, 10 Hertz. It's like, but the frequency in PEMF signal has many layers, you know, and signal processing, unless you're dealing with simple sine waves, if you have a simple sine wave, then the frequency is the frequency, right? But you rarely see that even the Chinese mats have pulse, you know, they pulse 60 Hertz, so they have a couple layers of frequencies even in theirs, right? So you have basically the carrier frequency, and then the carrier frequency only applies to when you're taking a sine wave and turning it on and off. The pulse generated frequencies, like in the Spectra, the CELLER8, Nextion and ICES, you know, all the devices that use a pulse, which by the way, is the best way to create a fast changing signal at a decent intensity, they're not going to have a carrier frequency, so like, like the CELLER8 is not going to have a carrier frequency because it's a pulse generator, it's an impulse function. So, so a carrier frequency sometimes doesn't even apply, but I would say the two most important things usually are the repetition rate frequency, which is the frequency of the pulses. So, so the square wave pulses in the field, so 10 Hertz would be 10 of those little pulses that you, that you see on your oscilloscope per second. Okay. If it's 20 Hertz, you just got, you know, 20 of them instead of 10. So the, the repetition rate frequency is typically what's called the frequency. Like with systems that have sawtooth, like say QRS and IMRS, the freak, it's the frequencies related to the number of, of sawtooth per second, typically, um, the Beamer signal, their little Beamer signal, it's the number of Beamer signals per second is their repetition. So what they're listing is frequency is repetition rate and signal processing, or it's the pulses per second, you could say, which is what I think Bob Dennis uses PPS pulses per second, but it's the same thing. So, but then the deeper layer of frequency is the Spectral content of the signal. So that's basically on a spectrum analyzer. When you break the signal down into all the, all the frequencies within it, it gives you the bandwidth or the Spectral content of the signal. And this can be, it's usually all the ones we've tested have been from zero, from zero to at least 2000 Hertz up to, you know, 16,000 or so, but most PEMF devices are like, you know, the band it's called the bandwidth, right? The, uh, the range of frequency. So most are around 4,000 Hertz and it's a wide, you know, a four or five, I think it's average so that, but when you look at the spectrum analysis, some, some type of signals give you a better, a better coverage of that range where, especially the impulse ones, like the ones, the ones that we use in the devices we recommend. Um, they have a better coverage because they're just, when you have a sharp rising signal, you get a broad spectrum of frequencies from what's called a Fourier transform. I mean, it's just the nature of an impulse. So we'll get more into that, but, but those are the two main layers. I would say is the repetition rate or the pulses per second and I, and then the, the Spectral content, which is kind of like, if you have a, you know, they have multivitamin, you have all kinds of different nutrients in your vitamin. Right. So in a, in a good PEMF signal, you got to, you know, you're, it's like a multi-electroceutical, you could say it's, you're getting a broad spectrum of different frequencies and because the tissues and cells in the body have, you know, it's kind of mind boggling complex. You know, having a broad spectrum just kind of gives you better chance of resonating with different, you know, tissues and cells and organs, et cetera. Yeah. So good.

Andy Smith 23:06 
that, that comes onto my next question because something we get, I would say it's 90% of customers that have taken a bit of a deep dive into PEMF therapy, when they come through the door, they buy a PEMF device and then they say to me, okay, I've got tennis elbow and I've got a sciatica, what frequencies do I need to use? So, what, in your opinion, should there be this Bible way, I normally call it, or guidebook of frequencies and conditions? And do we think that that is important to try and figure this out because any manufacturer that's tried done this in the past, I've seen a number of these and you put one against the other and they can be different. I mean, it's just, it's a...

Bryant Meyers 24:01 
It's the same thing with right. I mean, I was involved with right way back in the day. I mean, a long time ago, and you just have these like the CFL. You just have this huge database of frequencies and it's like like one condition Lyme disease. There's like literally like 500 different frequencies for line, right? It's like, well, which one do I use? So it's I don't think that's the way to look at PEMF. I think the better approach is when you have a high slew rate. You're getting a broad spectrum of frequency. So it's it's kind of everything's covered. It's like taking where should I take B1 or should I take vitamin D or should I take vitamin C? You know, what minerals should I take? Well, if you take a good multivitamin, you get all that at once. So so a good PEMF signal is a fast changing with a fast rise time because it's the rise time. It's really an inverse to the spec to the broad to the to the bandwidth. So the faster the rise time, the more frequencies you get. And that's just basic math. It's mathematics. It's even one layer deeper than physics. Or so it again, not debatable. It's just kind of the way it works. You know, this frequency for this condition and that condition really is what you have to do with sine waves because a sine wave system, you're only getting one frequency at a time. So you're almost forced to come up with. So I always tell people these companies that have these big books of frequencies are usually the least effective PEMF devices because there are a lot of times just sine waves that they're saying, well, we only have a sine wave. So we have we can only do one frequency at a time. So it's a very inefficient way of doing PEMF. And and with, you know, with the little demonstration, I was telling you, you know, the sine wave is like trying to hit like one, you know, it's using one, you know, one frequency to get one, say, say one type of cell in your liver or whatever. And then we're going to give you another program. We're going to target the muscle, you know, but see, you can you can keep doing that with, you know, you could have we could have like one hundred thousand tuning forks because in the human body, there's one hundred thousand unique biomolecules. Right. But even but it's worth it. It's even worse than that because all these biomolecules create complex structures that that have different layers of resonant frequency. So, you know, it's that's why I'm kind of it's difficult to use frequency to treat different conditions because as you as you as you saw and even research studies are not they're not consistent even in the best studies. You know, you know, one study will show 50 Hertz. Another study shows 75. Another study shows 10 Hertz. But the problem with these studies is they're not looking systematically at all the other frequencies. They're just kind of picking a frequency. And yeah, that frequency worked for that condition. But probably another frequency would have worked to is probably more the signal itself that was healing. And the frequency was just kind of kind of going along for the ride in the research study. Right. And so people say, oh, 30 Hertz goes, you know, but it's like, yeah, but look at the study. They didn't look at other frequencies. So how do you know that that was the best frequency? Now, some studies do look at different frequencies. We can talk about some of those, but, but I would say the key thing is the wave shape and that frequency is probably it's just easiest to use frequency of the pulses pulses per second, like in a pulse generated device acCELLER8, um, to use that for brain entrainment, like to like, for example, you know, cause the repetition rate does impinge upon the central nervous system. So if you use like 33 Hertz break for bedtime at a fairly high enough intensity, that's probably not going to get a good way to go to bed because 33 Hertz is going to work on your brain to kind of get ramp you up to a bait high beta. And that's, you're not going to go to sleep with that, but now three Hertz before bed, that's different. Now, if you do three Hertz under your pillow, that can help kind of allow you to sleep. So the, I kind of like the, the easy way to look at repetition rate is to use it for like brain entrainment and depending on the time of day. Now, Bob Dennis talks about repetition rate for dosimetry or dosage too, which makes sense, right? If you have, if you have 10 square waves a second, you have 10 sloughs a second slew, you know, the slew rate, what, you know, when the signal sloughs up to its top, so you're going to get 10 times the EMF for electromotive force or voltage. I say EMF that is electromotive force, not the bad EMF. This is the good EMF. Um, it's, it's in voltage, right? That induced voltage, your energy, you get 10 versus say five Hertz. You're only getting five. So you're, you are getting double the energy transferred in one second with 10 Hertz versus five. But it turns out that kind of goes along with brain entrainment anyway, because in the morning, typically you want to get ramped up with more energy. So using a little higher repetition rate, like say, you know, 33 Hertz, or you could do a good 15 is a good beta. Um, you know, the Spectra and I think your system to kind of don't, isn't yours kind of do like a variation of frequencies in the morning program? Yeah. Does it just one? Yeah. So we're very much in the same.

Andy Smith 29:09 
very much on the same wavelength here, pardon the pun, but you know, it's just to summarize what you're saying there because it's really important that it's not necessarily the frequency that's making the difference. When we're trying to use it for pain, for example, you know, we might get a good result with 4 hertz, we might get a good result with 12 hertz, but what we're trying to achieve here is the brain entrainment. So the best way to look at frequency is to use higher frequency in the morning, lower frequency in the evening, which we do. Let's say, for example, we're in the theta range right now. So it's right at the end of the day, we're either meditating or we're getting ready for bed and we're using a PEMF device in the theta range, which is 5, 6, 7 and 8 hertz, if I'm not wrong. So we switch it to 6 hertz and we play that device. But for example, like you just mentioned with the acCELLER8 device, in our theta settings, which is our evening or our meditation mode, we actually use all 4 of those frequencies. So we go from 7, sorry, 5, 6, 7 and 8 and then 5, 6, 7, you know, we change between them. So what's, I know what my theory is, but what's your theory behind rather than using and sticking to one frequency throughout the program? What's the benefit of using a number of different frequencies?

Bryant Meyers 30:29 
Well, yeah, you can, and again, Bob Dennis has like, he calls them pulse patterns too. So it just helps to prevent habituation, acclimation a little bit. So, I mean, because neuro-accommodation, the body can become, you know, acclimated to any signal. Although there is some research that kind of on the other side of that, that shows that arrhythmic constant frequency also can be beneficial. So, I mean, I don't think there's any settled science on that, but to me it makes sense. Like, I like the Schumann resonance, so like with the system I'm using now, the Spectra, I mean, which is kind of similar to the CELLER8, I kind of mix it up. You know, I like to cycle through the Schumann, like, you know, 7.8, 14.07, 20.25, 26.41, 32.45. Those are the first five harmonics of the Schumann. And then in my mind, I'm like, you know, the body's like very familiar, even though these are repetition rate. To me, it's like, well, the body knows what these frequencies are, we've, life has evolved them since the beginning of time on planet Earth. So, but I think it's just mixing it up as good. And of course, when you mix it up at night, trying to mix it up with the lower frequencies, right? And in the morning, and you know, the program, I think like on the Spectra, you know, the morning's going from 12 to 24 or something like that. And then it's like at night's going from like five down to, there's different ways to do it. I don't know that there's any right or wrong way, but I think certainly it goes without saying, you don't want to be blasting your body with high frequencies at a high intensity right before bedtime. So the intensity kind of plays into it a little bit too, which I found that, you know, if you, if you, if you just crank it up too high, sometimes that can be a little stimulating as well. So, you know, in the evening, it's kind of, so it's just more, it's just an easier way to use PEMF. And because if you have a good signal with a high slew rate, that's doing all the, that's doing all the work. The slew rate's the workhorse, you know, like Dr. Pollack, I mean, he says the power of a PEMF system or the horsepower is the intensity. He said, would you, would you buy a car without knowing its horsepower? It's like, well, I agree with that. I wouldn't want to buy a car without knowing its horsepower, but the horsepower of a PEMF device is the slew rate, not the intensity. Because again, this is what, how energy is transferred, not intensity. So that's what's doing the work. To me, the frequency is a little more secondary. Although we can go over a 2026 study by Cell Magazine that gives an interesting perspective on repetition rate, how it does maybe matter a little bit more than I think I understand. But so I'm not going to claim to have all the answers, but like yours and I are understanding right now with repetition rate and brain entrainment, that's kind of the way I teach frequency just to keep it simple. And I focused, I tell people you have, when you have a great signal, it makes everything easier because the signal has, it's like, again, it's like a multivitamin. It's all in there. It's all there. You're getting a broad spectrum of frequencies all at once in a good signal. And you're getting that fast rising edge, which is transferring the energy and inducing those micro currents in the body. Again, we're trying to get the body to be, to get like more bioelectricity going because when you're sick, typically your voltage is low and your bioelectric currents are diminished. So we got to kind of jump start things.

Andy Smith 33:54 
Yeah, I think the important thing you said in there is to simplify things, because sometimes people can overcomplicate stuff. And especially if it's very difficult to understand, you can't feel it in a lot of cases, there's lots of different, you know, waveform, intensity, frequencies, all that sort of thing, slew rate. If you overcomplicate something, people just won't do it. So yeah, it's like, you know, over it. Yeah. So it may be yeah, maybe later down the line, you know, we will find that certain frequencies will be a touch more important than other frequencies. But in the grand scheme of things, like you said, you know, it really comes down to the actual way more than if you've got, if you've got an effective signal, then that's important thing and try and keep it simple and try and apply it so that you don't, you know, you don't get lost in it. But you mentioned also the intensity there. And if I had to ask you to rank those three things, so waveform, sorry, four things, waveform, slew rate, intensity and frequency, where would you rank those in priority?

Bryant Meyers 34:59 
Well, I, I look at slew rate in waveform as the same thing. And the reason I say that is when I think of waveform, I'm thinking of an oscilloscope readout of the waveform. So in my mind, I'm looking on the oscilloscope and look at the waveform, like the rounded, you know, um, it's kind of the rounded triangle that comes out of a square wave. So I'm looking at the signal and I'm, I'm looking at the rise time and the peak intensity. And that's giving me the slew rate. So of course you've got to keep in mind what the, what the time window is. Cause again, you know, the image that I'm sending you is they're all different slew rates, even though they look the same, you'd have to stretch them out more and compress them a little more, right? Because a higher slew rate is going to go straight up more when other ones going to go like this, even though. So I would say slew rate in the signal shape or the waveform, I think I look at them as the same thing. Cause it just, that's because you need the waveform to calculate the slew rate on an oscilloscope. That's how you calculate the slew rate is by looking at the way in the time and then the peak intensity. Right.

Andy Smith 36:01 
Yeah, that's a good point. So let's let's consider that the same thing and then let's go for intensity slew rate and Frequency. Okay, would you where would you rank those three?

Bryant Meyers 36:14 
I would say the frequency would be second. You know, the slew rate already incorporates intensity. So the slew rate's intensity over rise time, so we already have intensity baked into the slew rate. But intensity by itself doesn't really mean anything, because again, you could have a 10,000 Gauss new Dynium magnet, or you could have a 10,000 Gauss DC magnet. You know, we've seen some coils, I don't know, can I name names of company? I hate to name company names, but that use so many windings that their inductance becomes, like it's called a choke. When you have too many windings in your coil, it chokes out the higher frequencies. And so it just rounds out their square wave to the point it's starting to approach a static field. I mean, it still changes. But so, you know, you can have a 10,000 Gauss, or a 10,000 Gauss even, you know, PEMF, that barely changes at all. So there's hardly any, where the frequency, it does matter with the repetition rate and brain entrainment, and with the Spectral content. Because, you know, through magnetic resonance, you can also transfer energy wirelessly. I think this is how the lower intensity systems are doing it, because they do work. So even though their slew rates are really low, they can still transfer energy to the cells because they have a signal with a broad spectrum of frequencies. So again, the broad spectrum of frequency, like if you have an impulse function or broad spectrum, it's like ringing all the tuning forks at once. It's called, in fact, an impulse, which is, you know, basically I would say the two types of main signal generators in PEMF are function generators, which do, you know, create, you know, square waves and sine waves and triangle. And then pulse generator devices are impulse generator, which is like the acCELLER8. And what the pulse generator is, you usually hear that little clicking noise, right? Because it's the capacitor charge discharge. And those systems have a very broad spectrum and they're kind of like ringing all the cells at once. And this is really interesting that this is exactly what happens. In fact, you use an impulse function to get what's called a frequency response from a system. So we use an impulse function, you can see what frequencies come out of a system because you're basically ringing all the tuning forks and all those tuning forks will tell you the frequencies present. So when we use PEMF in a very sharp rising impulse function, we ring, let's say these are 100,000 different biomolecules in the human body. If we have a very broad spectrum of frequencies, we're gonna be more likely to ring and resonate with all the different tissues and cells. So that's why I say a good high fast changing magnetic field is gonna give you the best of both worlds. So see, unlike the low intensity that only has magnetic resonance, high slew rate has both magnetic resonance and Faraday induction slew rate. Do you get two different ways to transfer energy to the body with a high slew rate? Where with magnetic resonance and low intensity alone, you have to rely only on magnetic resonance, which still can work. But you're missing out on inducing those microcurrents like getting that bioelectricity going. You get more induced energy with the high slew rate. But of course we don't wanna do too much. Again, that gets to the point of like a Goldilocks zone of ideal energies, right? So intensity does matter, but it matters in the sense that we wanna be in the right range of medium intensity to create a good slew rate.

Andy Smith 39:49 
So really you ranked, you know, intensity down as, as least important there. And we actually, you and I did, um, almost a whole episode on intensity. So, you know, and if we're saying that it's less important, why were people listening to it? Um, you know, I think people should definitely, definitely listen to that. So, because the point in which we're making here is a lot of people will market their PEMF device solely on the intensity and a lot of people will look at PEMF the same way that you look at a car, like you mentioned, you know, if something offers 20,000 Gauss, it must be better than a hundred Gauss device. And that's the mentality that we just need to shift aside a lot of times when it comes to PEMF, you know, we've measured the acCELLER8 device on the mat, which is at 50 Gauss and you get a, you get a magnetic field from like two meters away, so you can, you don't necessarily need this super, super high intensity, but I encourage everybody to go back and listen to that episode on intensity, so we won't take too deep a dive now, but you just mentioned resonance as well. Um, so we've been talking about frequency in this episode. What exactly is the resonance when it comes to PEMF?

Bryant Meyers 40:57 
Well, resonance is just, it's kind of like an energetic handshake in a way. I mean, so resonance is, you know, transferring energy from one system to another through, um, through a particular frequency or way, and it can be, you know, you can have electromagnetic resonance. You can have, this is more acoustic or mechanical type of resonance. Um, the human body has, I mean, I mean, there are studies, we know we, I, I have some charts and some of my videos and stuff where I showed different tissues and different resonances. Um, so it is important. And of course, for me, the tuning fork is always the easiest way. I don't, I wish I had another tuning fork. I didn't have a matching set, but if I had this same tuning fork and I rang it, it would transfer the energy to this and they would both be ringing. So that's like an energy transfer, a resonant energy transfer. Um, you know, radio transmission from a radio station, you know, to a radio. That's, that's through resonance. So there's lots of examples of resonance. Um, and you know, it, it, and like I said, magnetic resonance is one of the ways we can, that PEMF can transfer energy wirelessly. So, um, but because there are so many, like resonance is based on your, the material and the, and the geometry of, of, of, of the system. So, so, so this, the resonance of this is not just based on the shape, but it's based on how the stiffness and how hard it is. So in, in the body, you know, the cells have, you know, there's different elasticities, there's different structures. So there's all kinds of different resonant frequencies throughout the human body. And in, and it seems, I don't want to get, there's a lot to say on this and there's actually no super strong consensus on exactly what resonant frequencies, because everybody's so different, right? So you can have one person, you know, that might have different resonant frequencies on another, even though we all have kinds of same organs. And so, um, so yeah, I like to, so I just like to think in terms of, um, you know, having, and when you have a broad spectrum of frequencies, you can, you can kind of transfer a bunch of different resonant frequencies all at once. And all the different, you know, tissue cells, molecular reactions in your body will kind of ring when you have a really good signal, where if you just have one, like a sine wave, you only have one frequency to resonate with. So, you know, it's like that. Um, so it's, it's, it's really just a wireless, it's a way to wirelessly transfer energy when you have like a matching and the, the, the interesting thing about resonance is you can transfer energy wirelessly with a very low intensity through magnetic resonance. In fact, I think the, what is it? The, the, the pioneer 10 outs that when they, when it got outside the solar system was bill, I mean, how many billions of, I mean, trillion miles away, whatever it was, you know, outside of Pluto, Pluto's orbit with a, with the five watt transmitter through resonance, we were able to pick up a signal from, from that pipe. So that just shows you how, you know, and that's how, think of like a five or 10 watt light bulb. That's a very dim white. So it's amazing that we could pick up a signal from such a weak electromagnetic wave so far away, but that's the power of resonance. So it's because a precise frequency, you know, the NASA deep space telescopes, they were able to pick that up. They tuned in, they locked into that very precise frequency and they were able to pick up the signal, which is pretty amazing actually. The resonance is powerful, but, um, and like I said, this is why low intensity, why even a Pico Tesla PEMF device can work. Like I had a big, this big, um, what is it called magnosphere system for a while to test out and it had six foot coils on each side of me and it was using Pico Tesla intensities, Pico Tesla that's a trillionth of a Tesla. You know, we talk about, you know, Milly Tesla and micro Tesla, but then there's nano Tesla and Pico Tesla, even further down. So again, that shows you that even, even with the super low intensity you can have through resonance, you can have an effect, but again, why I like the high slew rate is that in addition to the resonance transfer of energy, you get the actual induced energy, which actually creates physical little microcurrents. Again, for induction, you can stimulate microcurrents. That's why I call PM really good high slew rate PEMF 3d microcurrent therapy because it's giving you not only microcurrents on your skin, see microcurrent therapy like, you know, E-Stim and TENS, it doesn't necessarily penetrate that well. And it only covers a little tiny area. But with PEMF, we can cover the whole volume of the body if we have a good layout of coils and a good slew rate, and get that most microcurrents going all through our. So it's just, I mean, I like the term energetic handshake is kind of an easy way to explain resonance, because it is, because when you have two systems at the same resonant frequency, they can kind of communicate and connect with each other, right, like a radio wave is a great, another easy example. So the PEMF coils are the antenna of the PEMF device, like a radio transmitter are transmitting a signal to your tissues, which are the, like all the, you can think of the cell receptors a little antenna, and whatever frequency resonances those have, those little, the systems in our body so you can pick up those, those three buttons.

Andy Smith 46:37 
Right yeah and when when talking about resonant frequencies how established are they when it comes to you know how scientifically established are they compared to a theoretical model is this is there a lot of science and data behind this.

Bryant Meyers 46:51 
Yeah. I mean, I want to take a deeper dive in this. I mean, there are, there are studies. I mean, I've, I've got this chart. I can say, I think you've seen it probably. It actually comes from James Osman's book on energy medicine. And he's got a chart where he talks about like bone growth, ligament, cell growth, osteogenesis, different frequencies. So some of these studies have shown that it seems that these frequencies, um, do resonate with these different tissues, but it's, it's not a, but like you, like you found out just as I have, you know, there's a lot of conflicting information on what frequencies are good for what tissues for what, what conditions. So I haven't been able to see any really, really, um, strong, cohesive, you know, unanimous, um, sort of, um, you know, list of frequencies where everybody's agreeing upon, okay, this frequency is good for this, that this tissue, I just haven't seen that, but there's, but that doesn't mean that there's not research to show that. That different systems have different frequencies. It's just, it doesn't, it's just not very unanimous. Like you'd think that if these conditions or these tissues really had this frequency, everybody would be like locked into, okay, let's do this frequency. You know, but like I said, that's more of a sine wave approach anyway. Cause again, if you're just talking about the frequency and that's the other problem is a lot of the studies that report frequency, some of them are using like square wave, triangle waves. They're not using simple sine waves. So they're really using the repetition rate as they're, what they're listing. And they're not even necessarily listing the Spectral content, which, which may have been the frequencies that really were doing the job or the, like the slew rate, right? So, because again, the slew rate and Spectral content are kind of married as far as like the, the, the, the, the, or the rise time, I should say. So the higher the slew rate, the faster, the rise time, the more frequencies you get. You're going to have better resonant effects. If you have a broader, a broader spectrum of frequencies.

Andy Smith 48:52 
Right. Yeah. So just to summarize these two areas, you said that low intensity systems tend to rely on resonance, whereas medium intensity, high slew rate systems induce stronger microcurrents,  so...

Bryant Meyers 49:03 
Well, no, no, the, the, the, the slew rate systems also, you have resonance. They have, that's why I say it's the best of both worlds. So I'm saying that the low intensity only has resin. No, I'm not going to say only. I mean, like I, we measured the slew rates on some of the, like the stock two systems and they had like maybe one Tesla per second or 2 1.5. They still have a slew rate and they still are transferring some energy and some inducing some microcurrents, but it's just much weaker. Right. So it's not, this is not all or nothing. Um, but, but especially when you get like in that system, I was telling you about the Pico Tesla system, that's going to be totally relying on resonance because with Pico Tesla intensities, you're not going to get, you're going to get a negligible slew rate. I mean, you're talking, I mean, just almost non-existent slew rate with that, but you're still getting effects from pure magnetic resonance with, with the high slew rate, you get the best of both worlds because you're getting a broad spectrum of frequencies and you're getting that induced microcurrent. Both. So that's why I tell people, there's really no reason to go for a low-intensity PEMF system moves because the, the, the medium intensity, high slew rate pretty much covers everything you're again, you're getting, and even if you're a sensitive individual, you can, you can start with a low and slow protocol by doing the lowest intensity, you know, for five minutes a day on a medium intensity system, right? So you don't, even if you're really chemically sensitive, you don't need a low intensity, even in that situation. So I honestly can't think of any reason to invest in a low intensity PEMF system anymore.

Andy Smith 50:34 
Okay, so would it be fair to say that low intensity is more for like relaxation and balance say so to speak and like medium intensity is more for performance recovery and healing? Is that accurate or?

Bryant Meyers 50:45 
Yeah I mean that's a good way to put it. I would also say that medium intensity is good for relaxation as well, though again when you have the repetition rates that are the relaxing repetition rate frequencies. I mean I use medium intensity system go to sleep at night when I'm having trouble sleeping it works with record charm though I mean again I think you get the best of both worlds with medium intensity. When you have and again you do want a good range of free I mean frequency again if you have a medium intensity and you only have zero to five Hertz as your frequency options that wouldn't be great. But what I found is that most systems have a pretty good range of frequencies to select from so I haven't found that the frequency options are the problem. What I found is the problem of most devices as their coils are too small like like the like for like I don't want to name names but the mats are sometimes just too short. Or you know too narrow too short coils too small and the slew rates are just too low they're not transfer they're not really getting enough energy into the body. Because I really feel you want to get those induced micro currents going and to levels that are native and natural to the body not too much. But but yeah I think in general the low intensity systems are good for relaxation and sleep and things like that they can but but I think medium intensity does that too just to be clear.

Andy Smith 52:08 
Yeah, okay, but you get the additional side of healing and that sort of thing when you're looking at a medium intensity is better had to have a little bit more than the super low intensities is that is that right.

Bryant Meyers 52:20 
Yeah, I mean, again, you're going to get healing with the low intensity. So remember, you're still going to get some slew rate. It's just less. And when you relax the body, remember the relaxation response, you know, a good low intensity that relaxes you. You're going to, you heal better when you're relaxed. So, you know, you, but I just think you get, especially what I've seen with medium intensity, high slew rate, you know, promoting, you know, um, mainly the magnetic magic, a little bit to celebrate, you know, the last year. Um, really when I made that transition with last year. I was just seeing people, especially that were in pain or had inflammatory conditions, uh, it just works better than any type of like arthritis, pain injuries. That's where I really saw that medium intensity was working better than low intensity and other areas too. But that was the real, you know, on myself too, because I had a car accident. So I was able to put it to the test where I had the car accident on my hand and my ribs. So, so I could just see that for healing that the medium intensity was working better, the high slew rate was working better than the low intensity systems. And, um, that's probably the number one reason people buy PEMF is for some form of pain or injury or arthritis, back pain, neck pain, at least that's my experience, even though PEMF does much more.

Andy Smith 53:37 
So kind of a takeaway on the frequency side of things, if someone's looking at PEMF device and they see like lots and lots of frequency options and maybe like over a hundred programs, do you think that's what they should be looking for or what should they be looking for instead?

Bryant Meyers 53:52 
No, that kind of is a little bit of a red flag for me, because it's usually telling me it's like a sine wave system or like a low intensity ineffective. Because you do, you get, because again, with sine waves, you have to have a bunch of frequency programs for different things. And again, like you said, like you've seen and I've seen, you take all these books of frequencies and line them up and they don't seem to match. Like none of them seem to agree on what to do. Um, but I think the better way is to offer people like, you know, like you'd CELLER8 and like the system, I recommend, you know, a good fast start programs for morning, you know, again, brain entrainment is the easiest way to think of frequency when you have, when you have a good pulse, when you have a high slew rate pulse, the pulse is doing is the workhorse that's doing all the magic, the frequency is there, you know, and, and to me kind of in a more secondary way, but an important way for brain entrainment and kind of the, you know, having impact on the central nervous system. So I think good fast, maybe like just three or four, not a hundred different programs, but you know, like a morning, you know, or relax, maybe a night sleep program, and then maybe like a balance program or something that's kind of middle of the road. Um, and then maybe just offer like you do like zero to a hundred Hertz, because if you're going to go by even like, we don't really have time to get into the study today, but, um, this recent study showed, you know, frequencies, you needed to get at least 20 Hertz up to like 120. Um, but they found it was interesting. The rep, this is repetition rate. They were finding that with cell signaling that 50 to 60 Hertz was the most effective, but it wasn't 50 to 60 Hertz sine weight. I was a little alarmed and I saw that. That's like, well, it doesn't sound good, but it was actually a 4,000 Hertz carrier. And they just turned it on and off, you know, um, 50 to 60 times. And that was creating some cell signaling. But, but if you have a zero to a hundred Hertz and you want to duplicate like research that's using repetition rates, then you can, you could, you know, you got a good variety of frequencies to choose from, you know, but I don't think having these kind of these cookie cutter like programs for different conditions, I just, they're not, I don't think hardly any of them, if any of them are really scientifically backed, but I would ask these companies, these frequency programs you have, where's the research behind your, your recommendation, I'd demand that because, or is somebody just making this up because they, they, they did a Google search and they saw that, oh yeah, 20 Hertz is bones. And I mean, I don't know. I don't know how people, I don't know how they're coming up with these frequency programs, honestly. Yeah.

Andy Smith 56:28 
in a real life situation, how this looks is, you know, a lot of companies are selling recipes, PEMF recipes, you know, and, and unfortunately, a lot of the time they buy a PEMF device, they then have to download their app. And if they want some more programs or recipes, they have to pay for them and that sort of thing. And, you know, our opinion on this is, is, is more of just the money making scheme more than anything, you know, basically.

Bryant Meyers 56:55 
some more programs.

Andy Smith 56:59 
And also with that is you have to integrate Bluetooth and Wi-Fi to your PEMF device, which again is just another whole episode.

Bryant Meyers 57:11 
I've got a couple of systems like that and you can on your Tri-field meter or your Coronet or any any EMF You see these little blips like of the of the it it's like it's like one of them You're putting your head right up there It's like you're putting your head right up this little that's not great. I mean, yeah Oh, yeah, I'm in agreement with I don't I'm against any like any any PEMF system that you are is paired to your phone That you use your phone to control to me. That's another red flag

Andy Smith 57:40 
Mm hmm. You're. Some.

Bryant Meyers 57:42 
Some of these little PEMF devices they have like they're little you know you're basically like using your phone to like control it right as a control unit the phone yeah yeah but that's guaranteed bluetooth on that you know other end of that

Andy Smith 57:56 
So we've talked about misconceptions but just to drive that fact home, what's probably the biggest misconception you would say is out there in the frequency world of PEMF?

Bryant Meyers 58:08 
I mean, yeah, again, that, that, that a certain frequency is, is used for a certain condition. Like if you, oh, I've, you've got cancer, you need to do 50, you know, 50 Hertz, a hundred Hertz, whatever. Um, again, maybe in the future, I mean, like I said, there's this one study from 2026 that I don't want to confuse things, but, but there's just, I think the research is lacking on like particular frequencies for particular conditions, and then you have to ask yourself, okay, but is that the repetition rate frequency, or is it just a sine wave frequency? Is it the carrier frequency? So it's like, if you're saying that this study use this frequency for this condition, you have to really look at the study, but even again, like I said, I've looked at a lot of PEMF studies and there's really just no consensus on the best frequencies to use that. So that's why I think for now, just to simplify things, because I really believe, you know, Bob Dennis talks about this too, you know, in one of his papers, he says, frequencies like 20% of it and 80% is the slew rate. So, so the 20% is there. So it is kind of important for, for, for dosage, you know, obviously more frequency, more pulses a second, it's more energy a second, right? So I like to think of it in terms of dosage and brain entrainment, you know, because brain entrainment is something scientifically very well known. And the brain can through electromagnetic entrainment, you can slow the brain waves down with PEMF, like lower, the lower frequency. So to me that there is a good consensus on brainwave frequencies. That's not like debatable. Nobody's like arguing what those are. Where you talk about what's the frequency for bones. Now you're going to find a debate because there's no real consensus on the best frequency for bone regeneration, for example, right?

Andy Smith 59:54 
Okay, and if people can take away one positive takeaway from this episode about frequency or resonance, what would that be?

Bryant Meyers 01:00:05 
I would say, you know, if you get a good high slew rate PEMF device, you're gonna get a broad spectrum of frequencies in the signal just that's just the way it works. I mean, with we don't have to get too much into for you transforms, but but the faster a signal changes, the more frequencies you get. It's just it's it's the nature of an impulse function. So I would say, look for high slew rate and you get the best of both worlds. So, yeah, that's to me.

Andy Smith 01:00:32 
Yeah, good and since, you know, one last magic question really, since the last time we spoke, since the last episode, you've done a few testing and you've seen even more crystal gem multi-therapy mats pop up in the market. Has your opinion changed at those mats?

Bryant Meyers 01:00:52 
No, it's, it's, I'm doing the testing on these. I mean, yeah, it's, it's, it's only solidified my position, which I think they're the worst of all a PEMF. I mean, cause they're just pulsing 60. I mean, when you really get down to it, they're just pulsing 60 Hertz or 50 Hertz in your case. And to me, that's the, that giveaway, right? It's like, you know, you send me, you know, the poopy math that you, the math that you humorously got. You can measure it at 50 Hertz. Like the carrier is you just measure in a certain window. It's 50 Hertz. Here in the U S it's 60, right? That is, that is, that's like a good proof that there's, it's no signal generator in those devices. So it's like that, that that's just, you're just taking wall current, turning it on and off. That that's, that's wise. My, my, my, so when I, you know, when we've done the testing on the coils, I mean, clearly the slew rate maps, even if you're going to give them every benefit of the doubt, I mean, the slew rates are still dismal that coils like on a couple of the popular mats that we've talked about, the total coil area is 27 square inches. So that's only, I mean, it's like, it covers 2% of the mat, the coils, less than 2%, actually closer to 1%. Cause they're just four little coils with 27 square inches. I mean that, so, so even if you give them every benefit of the doubt, the slew rates are dismally low, the coil don't cover very well. And again, the gemstones and the negative ions are not existent that we talked about. Red light is pretty much Christmas tree bites. And the far infrared is the same carbon heating elements you get in electric blankets and heating pads. Yeah, it's, it's nothing that there's just nothing there. So my opinion is, yeah, if anything, it's, it's, I'm not gonna say it's gotten worse, but I've, it's just the same and it's, it's been solidified with testing. The testing has shown that, yeah, it really is that bad. It's, it doesn't even perform well. If you forget about the 60 Hertz and everything else and just look at the performance of the slew rate, everything else, it still performs at the very bottom. And of the 13 we tested, the two at the bottom were two crystal maps and they're like 12 and 13. I mean, they just ranked the worst. I mean, so, and that's giving them every benefit of the doubt. That's not like looking at the 60 Hertz or anything.

Andy Smith 01:03:16 
And just to explain what Bryant said about poopy mat, um, we, you know, we quite comically cause these, these multi-therapy mats, they're, they're, they're coming off, um, you know, a production line and, uh, you know, out of the far east, which, you know, there are some good product that come out of the far east, but unfortunately these PEMF devices, these multi-therapy mats are just, just not the best example. And there's actually for people to understand cause, cause I get sent all the time on my Instagram, like, have you seen this PEMF device? Can you give me your opinion on it? Nine times out of 10, it's one of these mats. And just so people understand there's, we spoke to the manufacturer and they have over 300 brands selling these mats now. So pretty much it's the same system with a different badge. And it's as easy as going on Alibaba or made in china.com, sending your logo to them. They'll put your logo on it and they send it to you. Hey, presto, you're selling a PEMF mat. And we proved that point by creating a logo that says poopy. And it actually has a, has a little poo in, in, in one of the zeros. And we sent it to this company in China and they, they printed it on the mat. So maybe we'll, we'll pop the image of this on there and we have got some content eventually coming at some point to show this, but anyway, just summarizing that one, but Bryant, again, you know, we can talk more, um, but we're probably for today at a time. Um, but for, for the listeners, thanks again for listening to today's episode. If you enjoyed it, please subscribe. Leave us five star review on any of the platforms you're listening to. It really does help us get more amazing guests up. Bryant Meyers to share the knowledge with you. So Bryant, again, thank you for your time today.

Bryant Meyers 01:04:58 
Oh, no, it was fun. Thank you. And you have a great rest of your day here. We'll do another one sometime.