Andy Smith 00:00 
A quick disclaimer before we begin, the PEMF podcast does not contain any medical advice and the content provided is for informational purposes only. If you have any health concerns, please visit a healthcare professional. Welcome back to another episode of the PEMF podcast. Today we are joined by Ben Philipson, founder of Curatronic, also known as Parmeds. The company was founded in 2000 and has since become well known in the PEMF space for producing higher intensity systems. In fact, Curatron devices were something that Newmed actually sold, which I'll talk about a little bit during this episode. And so, yeah, Ben, welcome to the podcast, first and foremost.

Ben Philipson 00:48 
Thank you very much for having me. It's an honor.

Andy Smith 00:51 
Just for our audience, in this episode, what we're going to be talking about is Ben's thoughts on some of the most talked about PEMF specifications, including intensity, frequency, waveform, duty cycle and coil design. We'll also dig into some of the common myths and misconceptions surrounding PEMF devices and how they work. But before we get into that, just a little bit of an introduction, you know, it's really, you know, it's an honor to have you on the podcast, but also you're coming to us from Israel. So, you know, by the time this episode goes out, which I don't think will be too long, you know, my hopes and prayers that everything going on is hopefully ended by then. Say ended, it probably won't ever end, but at least not to the standard it is at the moment. But, you know, Ben, from your perspective, you know, and you mentioned to me just before this podcast started, you know, about sirens and if you have to run off. So, yeah, I mean, what's it like there at the minute?

Ben Philipson 01:48 
It's difficult to direct the truth. Although this morning, Grace and I, we went shopping. And we were amazed by the amount of people are sitting outside in the sun having their coffee and cake. And you get used to it. It sounds a little bit crazy and funny, actually, because you can't get used to rockets and air, great alarms day and night. And it depends a little bit also where you are. The last couple of days, it was more in the north of Israel that there are many rockets and they don't have any time to get to the safe rooms because it's close by from Lebanon where the enemy is shooting their rockets from. And we have here in Israel, if they are shooting rockets from Iran, we have a couple of minutes for warning because the rockets are detected at the moment. They are leaving the airspace to space, actually, and takes a couple of minutes, around four to five minutes before they end up over Israel. And then we have local alarms. So in the Tel Aviv area or Jerusalem area or in the central area, it depends a little bit where they can follow the, where the rockets actually coming down. Late in the last couple of days, they are changing also in more rockets with cluster bombs. I don't know if it's according to the Geneva Conference and it's forbidden to have cluster bombs because they explode in the air over areas where people live and they are trying to kill as many people as possible with the bomblets. And one rocket disperses around 60 bomblets and that it's scary. And although we are living, we try to live normally as far as possible. And yeah, what happens happens. And that's the situation at the moment. So I don't know when you're going to edit out a lot of stuff but I'm just saying.

Andy Smith 04:08 
No, no. I mean, thank you. We have guests come on here and we sort of tell our audience that they're coming to us from Canada or the US and they're having to get up early. You are literally in a war zone at the moment and you said to us that you were thinking of postponing this episode, but life goes on and so thank you. Thank you for sitting through these times and jumping on the podcast with us. I think it's a good time actually to kind of tell our audience also about mining your relationship because we have known each other for quite a long time. You know, it must be even through the business relationship probably getting on a decade now because Newmed originally started nearly 12 years ago now and one of the first products we took on as a distributor in the UK was from Curatronic, the Curatron products and we were introduced to them by Dr. Pauluk and his partner, Mark, who sadly is no longer with us, but Mark Higgers was actually a big influence for me personally, business minded and really introduced me to the PEMF industry and gave a personal introduction to me and yourself. So it's a shame that he's not here with us anymore, but this relationship started a long time ago and as I say, we were selling Curatron devices into the UK and it was only until a couple of years ago that we bought out the Accelerate range and obviously, as anyone will understand in business, when somebody who is a partner that's distributing your products brings out their own products, it's not going to be as harmonious as you'd love it to be, but we've kept a professional relationship between us, we've still got a lot of respect for each other, I'm pretty sure, I've got a lot of respect for Ben and the reason for this podcast and people always say to me, why do you get these competitors on? Because we want to raise awareness of PEMF therapy, we want to get people to share their experiences of their products, I only really introduce the better brands on here and there are some out there that we wouldn't want to give the air time to, but I hold Curatron products in a high esteem, so that's kind of a bit of an introduction to us and how me and Ben have known each other for many years, so if you hear us bouncing off each other, that's why.

Ben Philipson 06:42 
Even more. We visited your office. You did so. And we enjoyed meeting you personally and your loved ones and your other people. Definitely.

Andy Smith 06:54 
Exactly. So we have a very good, you know, business and personal relationship between us and, you know, and that's why we want to get you on the podcast to share your experiences of the PEMF industry because you've been in it even longer than I have. So let's get into the number of the PEMF episode and what we're going to do with this one is we're going to start by asking you a couple of quickfire questions. So what we do in the quickfire section is we ask you a few questions and these are very short answers that we can later on in the episode take a deeper dive into. So don't worry about not giving the full expression in this answer. We'll come to it in the episode. So Ben, your quickfire questions. What is the most important specification in a PEMF device?

Ben Philipson 07:41 
That depends what you want to do with it. And there is no straight answer for this because it depends on the application. It depends on the location where you're going to put in the APMS system. If it's whole body treatment, if it's local treatment, and if you want to penetrate deep into the body of a person or just superficial, that's my short answer on your quickfire question.

Andy Smith 08:08 
Mm-hmm. And what do you think is the best intensity range?

Ben Philipson 08:13 
Extremely low frequencies is supposed to be between let's say 1 Hertz and 50 or maybe up to 100 Hertz. That's the most important intensity range for PEMF according to my enveloping and experience.

Andy Smith 08:30 
And what is the best waveform for PEMF?

Ben Philipson 08:32 
A straight answer is a sine wave. But not just a sine wave. It depends if you want to obtain deep penetration, if you want to obtain superficial treatment, if you want to have an aggressive growth, if you want to have a smooth growth. So that's not easily answered this question. But we'll probably get on later on in this podcast.

Andy Smith 09:02 
Yeah, we'll take a deep dive, don't worry. Should PEMF devices use a single frequency or a range of frequencies?

Ben Philipson 09:10 
Definitely not a single frequency, you need a range of frequencies and preferably during the same session different frequencies and that's also a thing we probably going to address later on in the podcast. I assume.

Andy Smith 09:27 
Yep. And, uh, does duty cycle have therapeutic relevance in PEMF?

Ben Philipson 09:33 
Yes. Now beauty cycle is actually something which is misunderstood in PEMF treatment. Beauty cycle is the function of the width of an active pulse and the rest period of a pulse and the beauty cycle has actually nothing to do with how fast or slow the PEMF pulse is inducted

Andy Smith 10:00 
How important is coil design when it comes to PEMF?

Ben Philipson 10:05 
Extremely important. It depends the size, the quality of the copper used for the coin, how many windings are used to create the coin, the resistance of the coin, the speed of induction in the coin, actually, to emit the PEMF. I can show you later on also, maybe for the listeners it's not visual possible to show, but if somebody is looking at the podcast and this recording, I will give you a demo of the size of the coin and the distance it travels, also the PEMF.

Andy Smith 10:49 
Do you think most people misunderstand PEMF specifications?

Ben Philipson 10:54 
Wow. People, I noticed, are becoming more and more versed into comparing themselves, not only between the different devices, but also understanding more what's important for them. We get more and more technical questions, actually, where people are asking about intensity, frequency, range of the frequency used, the strength of the PEMF pulses. People are getting more clever, but still there is a wide range of late people who are not so much interested in these specifications. They listen more to the system, which is somebody purchased and wants to either repurchase or they make a profit by recommending it to a family member or somebody else. People do understand and do misunderstand.

Andy Smith 12:04 
Yeah, we could talk about that later because PEMF industry has been heavily influenced by MLM, multi-level marketing sellers unfortunately, which kind of has its own, you know, problems. But last question in the quick fire, if someone is comparing PEMF devices, what is the first thing they should look at?

Ben Philipson 12:24 
The use, the intended use of the device.

Andy Smith 12:27 
No, good. Okay, great answers. Okay, let's take a deeper dive into some of those questions that we've asked and for people that are constantly listening to this podcast and they hear me talking about accelerate range, they'll probably notice that there are some quite a few things that we agree on when it comes to PEMF devices and design, you know, especially when it comes to the coils and all that sort of thing, but also some things where we don't just don't necessarily agree when it comes to product. So it's good, it's good to get both sides of the coin. Um, so let's go for it. At Curatronic, you offer a wide range of intensities from around 70 gauss up to 10,000 gauss. It's quite a big, big difference. Why do you offer such a, you know, such a large range? And do you personally prefer a specific intensity range yourself?

Ben Philipson 13:13 
Okay, I have to start to say that we are manufacturing two different technologies of PEMF. It's the standard or the well-known PEMF used by most people for all use, for instance, but also for bad professionals is the so-called oscillating or true PEMF, which is a smooth way of inducting into the body energy and then we manufacture also very high intensity devices which are working in a different, according to different principle, can explain on it later on if you wish and where we need very very high intensity pulses in order to penetrate completely through the body and the whole body. That's why we manufacture actually two different technologies and most technologies have their own intensity range.

Andy Smith 14:19 
So do you think that the higher intensities, you know, sorry, let's rephrase that, that do the lower intensities not pass through the body? Or is it the fact that by the time they've passed through the body, they're, you know, nearly negligible in terms of the intensity side of things.

Ben Philipson 14:37 
If you look at a coil construction of a PDMS device, the emitted intensity of from the coil becomes lower and lower when you get farther away from the coil itself. If you imagine, for instance, a pyramid upside down and you have the point of the pyramid close to the coil, that's actually in the middle of the coil, and when you go out of the coil, you spread the intensity so much that every time when you double the distance more or less from the coil, you actually divide it by a factor of the square root, and when you do it another step further, it's even less. So when you start, for instance, with an intensity of, let's say, nine as an absolute figure, nine you start at the coin, when you get away one distance, it's diminished by three, and when you get another step, it's diminished, and you only had by one of the actually of the starting post. So the intensity is very important if you want to penetrate through the body completely, and that's why it's important that we offer such high intensity devices as well, but also lower intensity, although our lower intensity devices are still high compared, for instance, to your own manufacturing product, and your target in different areas, or you have different applications for your device than we have for our device. We target for medium and high range, where you target more a wellness device. If I express myself correctly,

Andy Smith 16:48 
Yeah, you know, you've come through the same, you know, the same industry in time that I've been coming through it when in terms of when we talk about low intensity, a lot of the systems out there are like one gouts. So, you know, we're talking about extremely low intensity systems there that, you know, a lot of the time are claiming that they, you know, they've got the ability to, you know, give a large magnetic field. But, you know, when we talk about the intensities we start at between yourself and I, you know, your system starts at 70 gauss starts between 50 and 100 gauss. So, already both systems are 50, 70, 100 times stronger than a lot of these devices that we'll talk about, you know, when we're talking about low intensity. So, there's still quite a big difference. And then you go into the thousands of ranges, which will, which will come to the following. Yep. So, you were going to say something.

Ben Philipson 17:42 
Low intensity devices have a field strength, often the same as the Earth field strength. So how, if you imagine how can you have a therapeutical effect when you use the same strength of electromagnetic energy, which is created already by the Earth, you more think in the direction of Earth thing, although that's not my expertise. So okay, all right, please, next question is great.

Andy Smith 18:15 
No, exactly. So like, yeah, that, I mean, you know, what you're saying there, Ben, is that the earth produces like a round, depending on where you are close to the equator, you're going to get between about 0.5 up to maximum 0.8 Gauss or something. Right. So, you know, people that are producing one Gauss systems, you know, a lot of the time, the beneficial, you might as well go out and lay on the grass and get the same kind of intensities.

Ben Philipson 18:38 
There you go

Andy Smith 18:39 
So you know, when you want to get a system to use in home, when you want to get the results a lot quicker, starting at 50, 70, 100 Gauss is, you know, where you and I both think is the minimum to start. So I think it's good to kind of clear that up. And following on from there, something that often gets mentioned in PEMF discussions is the dielectric properties of tissue. So for listeners that may not have come across that before, what does that actually mean and does it really affect how electromagnetic fields interact with like the different parts of the body?

Ben Philipson 19:11 
Okay, I would like to share a part of my screen with you if you don't mind.

Andy Smith 19:16 
Yeah, no worries.

Ben Philipson 19:17 
All right okay yes and because the body tissue penetration that changes for each area of the body and when I put and when you look at this screen for instance it has a certain you need a certain strength in order to be able to penetrate into the blood but if you compare it for instance you want to penetrate into the bone of a person you need a factor which is almost four times higher 45 times higher of electromagnetic strength in order to penetrate into the bone. Now if you look at the brain for instance the cerebellum that's even more strange indeed you need here five or six times the same strength in order to be able to penetrate the blood and the blood is more superficial and easier to penetrate that's why lower intensity devices do have some advantages and some working but if you compare for instance you want to treat the brain then you need absolute very high intensity devices which is an example when you are using a transcranial stimulation for instance those devices are extremely high intensity devices starting by one text line and that's way out of a standard PEMF device unless you for instance look at our ultra flat devices but that's a different issue altogether okay I just wanted to share this with the screen with you I hope it's enough clear also when people are not seeing the screen

Andy Smith 21:07 
No and it makes sense because you know and also at Celerate we offer low to also super high intensity device so we understand the differences between having the two different intensities and you know where one might supersede the other. So it makes sense to have that range in there. Do you, when it comes to intensity, do you believe that more is always better or does low intensity have you know have a benefit?

Ben Philipson 21:37 
No, definitely not. If you are looking for improved oxygenation and circulation of the blood flow superficially, then definitely low intensity devices, all body devices or local devices, they do have the advantage of being lower priced and do have sufficient intensity. For instance, your device is sufficient intensity. You don't have to do that work. But if you want to breathe, for instance, osteoporosis deep inside the body and you want to penetrate inside bone, you need higher index. Definitely.

Andy Smith 22:20 
Yeah. And it's a good point to make, like you said, you know, lower intensity devices can reduce inflammation, increase circulation, benefit sleep, all those sorts of things, which in turn will help with a number of different, you know, problems and, and, you know, overall health. So it's still great to use those devices, but when the higher intensity is needed, then that's the option to go for. Also, you know, I don't know if you share this kind of recommendation, but there are conditions out there where people are actually quite electro sensitive. So there are some people that we wouldn't go down the route of high intensity with conditions like lupus or fibromyalgia. These sorts of things tend to be quite electro sensitive and, you know, some of them can even find the lower intensity device is quite, quite strong.

Ben Philipson 23:15 
Okay permit me to disagree with you.

Andy Smith 23:18 
Okay

Ben Philipson 23:18 
Because I don't think that all people suffer, for instance, from fibromyalgia. I helped with very low intensity devices. They do need higher intensities. But as our product stream, since we have a certain device where you can program yourself the intensities and through an external PC or a laptop. So if you have such a device, it offers both of the best of both worlds. You can program very low intensities up to higher intensities. And there are advantages and disadvantages for, as mentioned before, for lower and higher intensities devices. But higher intensity devices, when you are able to control the outputs and density, I only see advantages in higher intensity.

Andy Smith 24:10 
Yeah, no, no, good, good to get your opinion. And, you know, something that actually I think we completely align with is the frequency range, because a lot of devices out there, you know, a lot of PEMF devices will go into the thousands of Hertz and they claim there's lots of different benefits for the different, you know, for these thousands of Hertz. We've capped off a range between one to 100, which is, you know, the same range that Curatron have. So, you know, in your in your opinion, you know, why do we only need one to 100 Hertz when it comes to the frequencies?

Ben Philipson 24:46 
They have proven to be the most effective, as simple as that. For instance, I'm going back to the example I gave from transcranial magnetic stimulation, for instance, for treatment of depression. I attended a training course specifically for application of transcranial magnetic stimulation, and one of the courses given was a professor from Australia who is very versed and has extensive experience in these kinds of treatments. He himself admitted that we don't know which frequencies work the best, but had proven that simply frequencies for this application between 1 and 5 hertz or 1 to 5 pulses per second seem to have the best results. Now, it's proven that frequencies, higher frequencies, for instance, used for physiotherapy, shortwave devices, microwave devices, heating the body of the body, internally work with much higher frequencies, and they are effective for the specific application because they create heat or warm inside the tissue. That's not our purpose. We've got to stay away from heating up the tissue with PDMS, and if we use very low intensities between 1 and 100 hertz, 1 to 200 pulses per second, those are definitely the most effective, and possibly even not higher than 15 hertz or 20 hertz, which are the most effective frequencies. But as we said this, it's important that you treat not only with one frequency, but I think you might ask later on also about this.

Andy Smith 26:45 
What about why you wouldn't use high frequencies?

Ben Philipson 26:48 
Now why you wouldn't use one frequency only?

Andy Smith 26:51 
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we can talk about it now. Why wouldn't you use one frequency only?

Ben Philipson 26:57 
Okay. The gurs was a disagreement and it's purely commercial and I think it started out in Italy. There are many, many manufacturers in Italy of a magnetic field therapy as they call it and also in Germany. I think I can easily line up 30 companies in Germany who have these kinds of devices and they started out by claiming that specific area of specific application, a liver, a heart or brain or whatever, needs to be treated with a specific frequency, which is wrong because everybody is different and not only that but also when you are using one frequency over a longer period of time the body gets used to a specific frequency. I like to give an example for instance, when you are sitting in a plane and you're flying, the first 10 minutes you hear the motor and noise and it disturbs you or your headphones or whatever but after half an hour you don't hear it anymore, you don't notice it anyway, you do hear it but you don't notice it anymore because the body adapts to hearing disturbances and which is PEMF. PEMF is disturbance inside the body and you get used to it. So I read up on it yesterday by coincidentally and I read an article that the body gets used when you use it more for more than six minutes to specific frequencies. We're talking about higher frequencies but also for lower frequencies it has the same effect so you should always treat the body or specific areas with different frequencies and how you're doing that, that's a different story. You only hear that story now as well I see you.

Andy Smith 29:07 
Go for it.

Ben Philipson 29:08 
Okay, let me tell you a following story. I was born and raised in Holland, I worked in Holland, and there I met, I think it's close to 50 years ago, oh now you know how old I am, close to 50 years ago, one of the inventors of the magnet for therapy, as we say it in German, and he was a very, very clever scientist, and he came to the market with one of the first devices, and we met up at an exhibition, and we were selling physiotherapy devices, and we were selling heart monitoring systems, nurse stations, defibrillators, and he asked us if he could sell his device in Holland, so he said he would give it a try, and we introduced it to auto therapists and to physiotherapists and medical doctors, and it was in the same period as the new technologies for electro-acupuncture were introduced into the market, and homeopathy was very, very popular at the time as well, so it was not easy to sell this device, we did sell the devices, but it was commercially not attractive enough to continue selling them, so we just continued selling those. Now when I came to Israel, 45 years ago, something like that, I started working for different companies selling medical equipment, and I was responsible for sales in Europe, Northern Europe and also Eastern Europe, and I then made many trips, and one of the trips, or one of the many trips I made to Germany for instance, is I met simply there with a distributor there, a company who started manufacturing post electromagnetic field devices, or they called it magnet for therapeutic laser, for treatment of osteoporosis, and they did study at the university in Graz in Austria, and they could prove that you increased bone density with this technology, and they had problems marketing the device, it worked definitely, but they couldn't keep up their heads about the water, so they went under, but when I saw this technology later on at an exhibition in Germany, and I saw one of the first very low intensity PEMF devices over there being introduced, and that's one of the systems which is now what they saw with multi-level marketing, and I went to the Buddha over there, I saw the device, and I looked at it, and I noticed, if you can't feel it, so they used a very sensitive detector to detect at all the magnetic fields, because it was so low, so when I saw it, and I came back to Israel, and I said to my boss where I was working, I said we should develop a system like that as well, but a system with high intensity, and he said that's fine, but only if you are taking it upon yourself to be the project manager, because I'm an electrometical engineer by training, I like developing medical devices, what can I do? I did not design the device, I had it actually manufactured in Germany, because there's the technology, excited about the technology, and we started selling, and one of the first devices we sold were the hospital in Beijing, in China, so I went there to give training over there to the doctors over there, and then one day I showed it to them, and he said okay treat me, next day I came back, and there was a row of four or five doctors were waiting for me, because they heard from the first people had been treated, they also wanted to have the treatment themselves, and that was the beginning of a very successful high intensity treatment for a pain treatment actually, and how did I get to this story?

Andy Smith 33:41 
You went off the boat off the off the track

Ben Philipson 33:45 
Yeah okay so one of the trips I made was in Germany. I met with one of the another of the people or scientists who actually used or had invented and he had a lot of patterns for inside the body implants and being stimulated with post electromagnetic fields and when he sat down at his office and he explained to me specifically that you need specific frequencies but not only that those frequencies cannot be used for more than a couple of minutes at the time and then you need to jump into another frequency so you cannot say okay I'm trying to or I'm treating now with four hertz pulses but next next slide when it is five hertz and then six hertz no no no that's not the way to do it you must jump with a distance in the different frequencies for instance from four hertz to eight hertz to twelve hertz to two hertz to six hertz and then you get effective treatment and the body does not get adapted to the specific frequencies and this covers a lot of different areas and then we get back to those people who claim you can use specific frequencies for a specific orbit which is not true definitely not true and that's why the reason that one of our devices are based on a sequence of different frequencies which changes over time in the couple of every couple of minutes in order to be stay effective for the whole treatment time and I assume your device does something similar right

Andy Smith 35:41 
Yeah, yeah, so and you know, just to summarize everything you're saying there in terms of the frequency, you know, it's exactly the same. We get a lot of people and the industry has been kind of trained into this notion of getting a book, opening the book, finding a condition with a frequency listed next to it. And that's what they want to see. You know, they want to see that 10 hertz fixes this problem and 12 hertz fixes this problem. And we have to retrain that mentality to understand that that's not how PEMF works. Well, as far as me and you are concerned, we're both aligned with that, you know, and we have also programs where within those programs, even the morning, the evening, the meditation or the night program where the frequency is consistently changing throughout that program. We also have the custom program where people can choose a frequency and it will run that frequency for the entire duration, which we, you know, because we get these people that, you know, they may be not have bought the product unless it had that feature. Then when they've got it, we can train them into using the programs and tell them why. And I really like your analogy and actually my chief engineer is always giving me a very similar analogy and it's like your passenger in a car. And if you accelerate to 60 miles an hour, you can feel that if you sit on the motorway and sat there for 60 miles an hour continuously for the whole 20 minutes of your session, you're not going to, you know, you start going to that dream state and drifting off and, you know, and you almost don't know it's happening. But if every five seconds you're changing your speed, you're going to know that, you know, you're going to understand. And as a passenger, you're going to say, why are you keep putting the brake on? Why do you keep speeding up? Why do you keep changing all of this and and your body's doing the same. The cells are doing the same and they're able to react to that therapy. If you've only got 10 minutes or 20 minutes to apply to your session, you want to maximize it. So you want to make sure that it's changing frequency throughout that session. And yeah, I think that's a nice analogy. So we'll we'll move on from the frequency side of it and we'll talk about the kind of waveform and duty cycle now, because I know that's something else that you talk about quite a lot. And duty cycle is one of them ones that very misunderstood and very, you know, can be over complicated. So on your website, you talk about the importance of suppressing electrical noise or electro smog in PEMF devices. What do you think is an important design consideration when it comes to that?

Ben Philipson 38:10 
Okay, when we talk about the effective frequencies of PEMF devices, we want to have them in the certain scale in the area between one and how that hurts. All the other frequencies higher up, they are just disturbances and they are called harmonics in electronic language. We want to suppress them. They are of no use and they are disturbing actually what you want to, the effect you want to obtain and there is no use for them. In our devices which are mains powered, all arguments are mains powered, on purpose not battery powered and that's something we might also disagree upon but not necessarily. When we use or when we generate electromagnetic pulses, we actually disturb main powers going into the mains. So we have a special filter which avoids getting the electromagnetic pulse back into your power of your home in order not to disturb other devices. But not only that, our very high intensity devices, the outer flash devices, they also have a very high frequency filter at the outside going to the course in order to avoid spreading noise into the surrounding which is being detected not only when you have a radio or whatever on other devices. For instance, when you use a mixer at home in your kitchen and you get disturbance in radio working close by if there is no good filtering and in order to avoid these kinds of things, it's noise we don't need, it's disturbance and we want to filter it out and that's the suppression of electromagnetic noise actually. That was your question.

Andy Smith 40:25 
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that makes sense and the waveform that you use.

Ben Philipson 40:33 
Sorry, okay. I just wanted a little bit deeper inside it. We've talked about duty cycle, okay? And battery power to not battery power, okay? Duty cycle is the time actually when you have a post and we don't have a post. So if you take one second, and for instance half a second you have a post, and the other half second you don't have a post, your duty cycle is 50%, okay? 50% of the time you have a post. Now, battery power devices generally use very small pulses and have a long resting period. Now, that's understandable because you want to preserve the energy of your battery, otherwise it's exhausting your battery very, very fast. And if you want to accent the facts, now the disadvantage of the advantage is if you preserve battery power. But the disadvantage is that the amount of energy inside the time you give the post, if you for instance have a 10% of the time only post, that the energy is very, very low. So the effect you are having actually with your post is extremely low. Not only the battery devices often have a square post, because electronically it's very easy to create square pulses. And I've seen it in many devices, but the problem is that there are people who don't understand and they don't want to say about the designers of the electronic devices, but when the moment you induct a square post inside the body of somebody, it's being rounded off and it approaches the form of a triangle post. It's not a square post anyway, it's starting to be a triangle post. So what the whole hype is about, a square post is, I don't want to use the word nonsense, but it's probably a not correct, put it that way. So that's why we say, okay, we use pure sine wave, which is the ultimate best post form, but we want to induct it very, very fast inside the body of somebody. And how can we do it? And if you allow me, I want to go back to my screen. All right, so what we do actually, we create so-called squares by opening the time we allow pulses to go through, but during the time we allow pulses to go through, we actually use sine wave pulses inside this post. So if, for instance, in this example, people don't look at the screen, but can't see it, we have an example here of three pulses per second, but each pulse contains a pure sine wave where you have a moment when you start using the sine wave, a maximum pulse strength of the sine wave where we allow letting it go through in this time where we allow it in the squares. So what we have is a square-gated sine wave carrier frequency. And as I say, it's written on our website in explanation, it sounds complicated. Then the next question we always get is, how do you then take care if you don't want to have the all maximum amount of energy inside or maximum amount of pulse? Then we said, okay, we open the window a little bit later and you get a very small amount, but it's still sine wave form in the same pulse. So that's why we call it that way. And that's why we say, okay, that's the most effective optimal way of inducting the pulse inside the body of somebody. And we can use the beauty cycle exactly to regulate how much energy we are going to put into the body of the person while still using the maximum time, the induction time when the pulse starts. It sounds a little bit complicated, but when somebody is really interested in go to our website, curealtonic.com and read up on all the technical details about it. Not only that, but also about other features of our video.

Andy Smith 45:29 
Yeah, no good. And just for, you know, just for listeners, or often listeners for this podcast, and you know, they're listening and they're thinking, oh, hang on, accelerates a square wave. And it's also a battery operated device. So are we saying it's, you know, it's not the best. But just to come back to some of your points, we do a square wave to get a high slew rate, which we'll talk about in a minute. But also, we have a, our duty cycle is at 50%. So that's why our battery that we put in there is one of the most expensive things in the device. But there are a lot of battery powered devices on the market, like you say, that have a very, very short duty cycle exactly like you're saying, because, you know, they happen to preserve the batteries and that sort of thing for it. And also our high intensity accelerator device, we use a sine wave. So we have got a combination of both. You know, my theory a lot of the time when it comes to the lower intensity and the higher intensity is the higher intensity is a lot more reliant on the power with where you get the benefits. And the lower intensity is a little bit more reliant on the wave and the and the slew rate. So coming back to the sine wave that we talked about.

Ben Philipson 46:41 
Hang on, you used to work slew rate, which is also something which is not fully understood by most people.

Andy Smith 46:48 
No, that's my next question for you. So, you know, because what a lot of people say out there in the market is that sine wave has a very naturally slow slew rate. But how do we, how do we justify that? You know, how do we sort of entertain the fact, because as I say, you know, our high end device, our high intensity device also has a sine wave. So, you know, what's, how do you best educate people that in those intensity sine wave is better and you don't necessarily need that slew rate or why slew rate is a misunderstood.

Ben Philipson 47:22 
Why the slew rate is not understood. The slew rate is actually technically the raised time of the possible in the moment it starts. That's the definition of the slew rate. It's a little bit more difficult to explain these kind of things if we don't use a picture. And allow me to go back to a website. I think that I have also a picture of how, okay, here it is. And I start again to use my, I share my screen. I give an example over here of MRI machines and we call the slew rate. I call it the speed of induction in order to explain better, lay people as they say, so what it involves actually. A lot of people, I don't know about you personally, but I personally, yes, I went through an MRI diagnosis. And when you lay in the machine, you hear very, very loud. Okay, why do you hear that? Because the coils inside those machines that are being pulsed electromagnetically, very, very, very high currents, causing the coil itself to move. You will hear the mechanical movement of the wires inside the coil, which makes a lot of noise. That's the reason why you get a headphone on when you're in such a machine. So you can relax and take care that you don't move. So the speed on which these coils are being pulsed is extremely important to obtain the best possible picture being made by the computer afterwards. I don't want to go into how an MRI machine works, but that's outside the scope of the description. But the importance of containing a very, very professional and good quality picture is the way why you need to have a very, very strong and very fast induction of the poles. Now the same is true for pre-MF. If you want to induct into the body a signal deep inside the bone and deep inside the cells, you need a very, very fast pulse. Now the very fast pulse is obtained. And this is actually an actual pulse inside the coil of one of our devices, where you can see that it's extremely fast. It's within one millisecond. You get a change into the electromagnetic field, which is comparable to around 50 Tesla per second, which is extremely, extremely fast, promising you that you get a very, very good penetration through the body. And that's one of the things where the speed of reduction is important. And the PDT, which is being used, which is the technical term, should be as high as possible for any PEMF device. Okay.

Andy Smith 50:53 
No good to make sense so yeah thanks for breaking that down see it before we get into the next section and we and we kind of touched on this before we talked about the different frequencies and sticking to a hundred hertz infrared technology. Uses a lot higher frequencies so should we be combining PEMF and infrared because the market is kind of you know a lot of people are searching specifically searching infrared PEMF mats now. The problem i think is that they're getting directed towards these multi level multi therapy mats which you know my opinion a designed. Very basic and not put together properly so you know let's talk about that do you think infrared and PEMF works well together and do you think it's important to get it right.

Ben Philipson 51:43 
You have to make a difference between infrared and red light, okay? Red line is being called LLLT, left light and infrared. It's actually, you cannot see the pulse. You cannot see the light. That's infra and infrared is actually, it's heat. So you're warming the body. So I don't personally see the difference if you lay on a, if it's very cold in winter and you put in an electrical heating blanket inside your bed in order to warm up your bed and an infrared or infrared light device or mattress. What I do see the advantage is red light device, red light, they have proven at specific frequencies to be effective, to penetrate up to, let's say, up to maximum one inch inside the body of somebody who's laying on a red light device and it is effective in improving oxygenation and circulation superficially of the body. So that's red light with used with right frequencies is effective. Now, if you think about combining, for instance, PEMF with the red light, you may say, okay, that's advantageous, but there is a big, but, and then I'm going to point out a specific thing, which we manufactured in the past would be discontinued manufacturing because of a specific reason. Let me see if I can find over here. Yeah, here it is. And we need to manufacture a combination probe and I'm going to, yeah, I don't know whether you ever saw it before and I have to share again my screen. Here it is. Our curatorial device was also combined with a so-called PEMF-LLLT probe where the pulsing of the red light were exactly served together with the cord, which was inside over here in the same probe. And this is being used or has been used actually, or it's still being used by the handheld probe, as you can see over here, where you at the same time that you put a pulse, a PEMF pulse in the body of person, also a red light into the person. And this combined pulse, both red light with the right frequency and the pulsed electromagnetic field had a fantastic effect. And we heard after a couple of minute treatment of acne, for instance, in the face of a person diminished the amount of acne dramatically and beauty challenged this problem of what's being used actually. And why did we just discontinue because of the height of the red light and the way that it was being marketed? And we simply, it was not worse for us to manufacture it anymore because it became too expensive. That's why we discontinued the manufactured probe. And up to today, I feel sorry about it because I loved it and the effect it had for people and used by them. It's a pity, but we couldn't compete with the cheap, you may say, cheap stuff being manufactured in China and being sold on AliExpress and whatever, and people who don't understand the dramatic combination of PEMF with the red light, especially when you use the same pulsing frequencies, the same time you open up actually the skin with the red light and then penetrate even deeper with the PEMF. It's fantastic. It works fantastic. But maybe we should again, people are going after it.

Andy Smith 56:22 
So I mean, I asked the question a bit wrong, actually, to be honest, because, you know, your your answer is yes, you should mix the two together and should do it correctly. And, you know, and actually we do we mix the two together. You know, we have a big red light panel, which is red light near infrared and PEMF underneath. But I think what I was kind of getting at there was originally was that you get these multi-therapy mats with it all built into one mat, all coming from the same direction, all done very cheaply. Is there a bit of a misunderstanding over these multi-therapy systems in terms of how they're done and how they're put together? You know, what do you think that they're actually beneficial?

Ben Philipson 57:06 
To tell you the truth, I know the technology goes back 40 years. At least, there are at least in Germany, I know, 10 to 20 companies manufactured or have manufactured these kinds of mats. And they should all stop manufacturing, almost all stop manufacturing these mats, because they couldn't compete with the cheap Chinese devices. My opinion on the effect and quality of what's being sold from there, it doesn't keep up with the quality of manufactured devices in Germany, for instance. But I'm nowadays not sufficiently versed into this specific like technology anymore, to be of a firm opinion. And having said this, maybe there are, or there will be in the future, high quality devices also manufactured in China. I can give you an example. I have been in the hard monitoring systems for many, many years, and I know my way out. But a couple of weeks ago, and there was a publication by the FDA in the United States about concerns of monitors being manufactured in China, high quality monitors manufactured in China, because of the backdoor. And they are all connected to the internet. And what turned out to be that those devices, not only were able to download all the information of the patients, but also were able to change the monitoring program inside the monitors through the internet online. And that's scary. And that scares me a lot. And also devices which work through Bluetooth, for instance, you know how easy it is to break into those connections. And I would stay far away from it. I've been asked, why don't you make an app for my iPhone? So I can throw a device, I say not thank you very much, you stay away from that. That's not something we really want to get involved with. Technologically today, it's not a problem. But if I can change on a distance, my monitoring system in another apartment, for instance, it's really scary what's going on. So that's why I would, there's another reason to stay away from the connection process in China. But okay, that's the story.

Andy Smith 01:00:01 
Yeah it's interesting you mentioned Bluetooth as well because it's something we steer away from also in terms of. Customer experience you know we not we know a lot of PEMF devices out there that use Bluetooth that connect to your phone they're very clunky they disconnect it takes five minutes to even set your program up before we started so you know it's it's not the greatest technology to integrate but also. You know you then you're going down the route of high frequency emf's three phones from the Bluetooth and so it's kind of just an area that we've we both kind of steered away from. I would talk if you think.

Ben Philipson 01:00:34 
You said you just meant it takes five minutes to set it up. That's one of the reasons why our devices are extremely simple to set up. You know it yourself. You have worked.

Andy Smith 01:00:44 
Hm.

Ben Philipson 01:00:45 
Four touch buttons on the front panel of our devices, start, stop, pause, and program number. That's it. And even people 80, 90 years old, they operate our devices who have any problem. So that's the big advantage of having everything inside the computer, inside the device, and not offering more than it's absolutely necessary for operation.

Andy Smith 01:01:10 
No, I agree wholeheartedly with that. We'll talk about a couple of myths and misconceptions next. So, you know, when you look at the PEMF industry today, what do you think are the most misunderstood aspects of the technology?

Ben Philipson 01:01:24 
Intensity, frequency, and don't have the most, I think, misunderstood. And people are talking about we get emails without how many gausses your system is producing. We noticed that we were the first, and I know 100% for sure, we were the first to publish technical, a lot of technical information on our website. We have almost, today, I saw 96 pages on our website explaining about BEMF. We get many emails telling us, why do you have so many pages? I get lost on your website. On the other hand, we get emails telling people, technical people mostly, oh, I love your website because you explain it very well. And we know we can rely on what you're telling us. We try always tell the truth. If we don't know anything about it, we don't talk about it. So that's a different story. But it's confusing people sometimes. Yeah, your website is confusing because you have so many pages where it comes. Because find what we need. We try to do our utmost, but we're not perfect. And we try not to hide anything. But since we started publishing technical details on our website, including strength and so on, we noticed that our competitors are also doing the same thing, or are trying to do the same thing. And they simply copy our pages, they change some wording, and they publish it as if it's their own stuff. I wrote an exhibition not so long ago, and I picked up a brochure from a Russian company by the time that person was able to pass, and I picked up a brochure. I opened it up. It was a publication we had written. And they simply copied it and put their name on it. And I said to the people on the booth, then why do you copy our publication? No, no, no, it's ours. It's ours. So I'm not ashamed. I don't hide anything and we publish whatever we think we need to be published. And the people are intelligent enough to see and to compare apples and oranges, as they say in English.

Andy Smith 01:03:47 
Yeah, I mean, talking about your website, you know, the next question is a quote from your website. And another myth that we want to kind of talk about is when it comes to polarity. Because a lot of people come to polarity, the magnetic field. A lot of people ask that, you know, that they're insistent that they want it to be a north field or a south field. And what it says on your website is, it is nonsense to claim that PEMF post-electromagnetic fields have a positive or negative field. So, how do you, you know, can you explain what you mean by that?

Ben Philipson 01:04:20 
When you pulse and create the pulse in a coin by current, going through the coin the pulse is being the electromagnetic energy is being passed both directions and not only in one direction and now I'm going again to my desktop and I see if I can share with you. This is a demonstration of a current loop as just clearly written over here. When I have a coin over here and I pulse it with an electromagnetic or with a current the current goes in both directions in the north direction and the south direction or the other way around whatever you want to call it it's not important it's always a closed area okay what you see now if I diminish my current over here in the here then I get a less spread out of the electromagnetic field then if I increase the current and now you see the density or the quantity of the magnetic field is much much higher than when I have a lower intensity this clearly demonstrates the effect in a coin why it's important to have when you use a high intensity device or how you create actually a high density PEMF field when you increase the current that's clearly missing here but that let's go back to another example I'm going to make a very small coin which is being used for instance in a when you have two coins when you put together left and right on the knee for instance then you get a small coin but the intensity in the coin or around the coin is very very dense but if I'm going to increase with the same current the size of the coin you see that the density diminish is very very fast now that's the reason why we have different designs of home body mats for instance our standard board a hard-bodied mat contains eight coins which is spread out over the body of the person very very constant very very nicely put it this way but if we have a very light coin we need much much more current in order to be able to completely cover the body of a person now and let's go back okay this let me stop sharing this one because otherwise it's it's actually confusing I have to our okay and we're talking about

Andy Smith 01:07:41 
So, I mean, bringing it back to the polarity, I think the point you're making there, if I understand, is that, you know, one side comes out, but it's exactly the same as the way it comes in the other side. So, we're kind of in agreement that there is a way that the magnetic field travels and people like to call that north and south. But I think we're both in the agreement that it doesn't really make a difference. If you're sitting on the north side or the south side, what people would call of the map, because the magnetic field is identical around it.

Ben Philipson 01:08:15 
So if you're in this example, there you will clearly see not only the density and the size of the coin, but also that it goes around. So you get indeed a coin and you get the field at the top side and you get the field at the back side. So that's the reason why, for instance, we say, OK, take the coin, put it between your three knees and you treat both knees at the same time. You don't treat one or the other side. So yes, we are in complete agreement about it.

Andy Smith 01:08:45 
And you mentioned your coils in there as well, another thing that, you know, we have quite similar in our designs is big thick couple coils, lots of turns, you know, in my opinion, your opinion, that is the best design to use when it comes to PEMF, because there is a lot of other manufacturers that use either very flat. They've kind of called them as like dish plates, that sort of design of coils. And then you've got, you know, the worst kind, which I think is like ferrite rods or, you know, different types of coils that may not produce such a, you know, nice field when it comes to PEMF. So I hope, I think your visuals help with that as well.

Ben Philipson 01:09:29 
Yeah, when we already touch this area about quartz and so on, for instance, the other technology we use for PEMF, the flash technology, which is based on a different way of generating post-electromagnetic fields is we actually we charge like a battery a capacitor, a high-voltage capacitor and we discharge this high-voltage capacitor in one go very very fast in a coil. This creates a very high intensity, extremely high intensity, very short pulse which is completely penetrating the body of somebody and if you put for instance this pulse in both sides in between two mats you get a reasonably semi-health voice spread of the energy inside the body's patient in order to obtain a complete treatment of the body and you can also use it that in one of the misunderstandings is that we get in another different area of what's that noise.

Andy Smith 01:10:53 
Oh it was just a bit of wind.

Ben Philipson 01:10:56 
An area of PEMF is you create a photoelectric magnetic field. This is a very, very short starting time, actually, the induction, actually. And there are devices in the market. I think you also sell one of those, manufacturing in China, by the way, which creates a very, very short, they call it nanopulse, or whatever they call it. But there is no energy. There is no energy in that field. What happens is you create an electric pulse going to the motor point of a muscle. And you create a muscle movement, which actually is not related to VNF treatment. But only if you are able to create a pulse, which is sufficiently wide, that the duties are sufficiently wide, then you have energy inside that specific pulse. And then you can treat it as PEMF. But those devices, they are based most, they're based on a spark gap discharge. How does that work? It works the same way as you have in your car, for instance, a spark plug. And when you charge, actually, a high voltage capacitor, and you discharge it through a spark plug, which is the same as a spark gap, then you get a pulse. But pulse has the same magnitude, or you may say amplitude, because the discharge is happening over in air, for instance, in those PEMF devices. And the amount of ionization which occurs between those plates differs from the temperature, depends on the oxygen, which is in the air. It's never stable. So that's why those devices are not able to use the maximum intensities they are able to create, because the pulse is one time is this maximum, and then it's that maximum. And that is painful if you treat it on top of that, you create actually muscle movement. And you might call it also similar exercise, for instance, it's muscle exercise, actually, if you can call it exercise, our PEMF devices differ completely from those devices. It's also really called high intensity, very high intensity, super high intensity, whatever. But we have a solid state, which is an electronic distance system, nothing to do with spark gap system. And because you discharge always, it's the same amplitude, the same magnitude. And on top of that, we create a pulse, which is not very short, but it's quite close, you get a lot of energy being inducted inside the body of somebody, you get both the muscle movement. And on top of that, you get PEMF energy inside the body. That's a different technology we did not touch upon in the podcast before now. But that's one of the things which that's good.

Andy Smith 01:14:26 
Good point to make, and just to clear up confusion for the listeners, we also represent Hugo in the UK, which are high intensity, and they work on spark chambers as the technology, but the CELLER8 Max device uses solid state technology, so it doesn't use spark chambers just to make sure everyone's on the same page. Something that comes up quite often, and I know you've mentioned it before, is metal implants such as hip replacements and fracture screws, that sort of thing. So, especially at the higher intensities, there is a bit of a worry with people using those technologies on those areas. Is that it should be people be concerned, or is, you know, in your opinion, it's just...

Ben Philipson 01:15:09 
Absolutely not if they have an implant which is over the last 30-40 years because the implants are always used in non-ferromagnetic material or material which cannot be magnetized. What is the concern? The concern is that the increase in temperature of the implant is being caused by electromagnetic induction or off by PEMF. Now, first of all, the PEMF causes are sufficiently short in order not to induce a temperature increase. Yes, you increase the temperature in old patients and non-ferromagnetic materials but they are not used anymore at this time. So, even in drain implants or in whatever instance we get questions, you either stand up, can I use PEMF? Yes, you can. Where you cannot use PEMF as its control indication might be electronic implants like implanted defibrillators or pacemakers or these kind of infusion pumps. Then we say, okay, you can use it on your feet far away from the device. But the rule of the fish is if you look up the documentation of the manufacture of the implants of the active device and it's written over there, it's MRI safe, it is definitely PEMF safe. So that's the rule of the fish that I always tell people. But yes, there is no concern. Any implants you get in the last 20-30 years, you can use PEMF. No problem.

Andy Smith 01:16:58 
And something else you've mentioned before, we've heard you talking about the kind of NASA studies being quoted quite a lot and being a bit more misunderstood. It's something that, you know, a lot of people do use, do talk about, do put in the marketing and that the NASA studies were using stainless steel electrodes, I understand, rather than actual electromagnetic electromagnetic coils. So can you explain why that distinction kind of matters and why you think the waveform from that study doesn't directly apply to the PEMF?

Ben Philipson 01:17:30 
Okay. The name NASA sounds good to you, right? Okay. Just as starters, one of the first devices I personally designed, which I mentioned before, is being used as, I don't know whether it's still being used, at the Cosmos Center in Moscow for cosmonauts to return from outer space in their state for whatever month at a time. And they were starting to use bone density. And when they came out of the capsule, they had to be supported because they had not the muscle strength anymore. So these cosmonauts have been treated with a divine design. Now, in parallel, NASA also had a study. And the study is misunderstood and misused by, I don't want to use the word unscrupulous people who used to work over there. But let me get close. I don't want to use that word, right? Okay, you know, that's a study which has been performed in Petri dish. You know what the Petri dish is where you put in bacteria and you start putting electrical current with two stainless steel electrodes through the Petri dish in order to see the development of under a microscope, what happens to the bacteria inside. That's the original NASA study. Now, the NASA study also used a magnetic field under the Petri dish as a separate part of the study. And the set and the strength of that field is lower, as you pick up that slot, much, much, much lower than the strength of the earth magnetic field. So go figure. It's no good. So they based on the use of the term magnetic field by somebody who designed, who used, who taught, who said he worked there. It's not the person who comes up in the study itself, because those are two other people who used to work at a NASA to design a post electromagnetic field and said this based on the NASA study. It's not. I don't want to use the word it's a lie, but it's a misconception. And all the uses or where they refer to the NASA study are nonsense. That's what I'm able to say on the podcast. Sorry about this.

Andy Smith 01:20:22 
No worries, it's always good to get everyone's opinion on all of these things because, you know, they come up a lot in this industry. Kind of an outro section here in terms of there is a bit of a split in the PEMF world between people who believe intensity is the key and then there's others that focus more on frequency or it's got to be the waveform, you know, or the certain signal characteristics. Where do you personally sit in this debate and where do you think is, you know, the most important parts of, you know, of a PEMF device? Where do you think people should start?

Ben Philipson 01:20:54 
Okay, PEMF can be used by anybody. And if you use, for instance, devices, which are tensed devices, which are transcribed, the unique electrodes to be placed exactly over the master or over the place where the weight works, they are have been popularized. And they are very, very cheap devices on the market to combine for whatever. But $50 or something like that. And those devices are incomparable. The advantage of PMS, you don't need to disrobe because electromagnetic filters completely penetrate from clothes to whatever you wear, as long as there are no metal, real metal, photometric materials inside the clothes, which are almost nearly the case. And the advantage of PMS is, not only anybody, anybody can use it, it's the ease of use. And what you obtain actually, if you have sufficient frames inside bones, let me start from the beginning. Two Japanese scientists, many, many years ago, I think, 60, 70 years ago, they took a bone, an arm bone from somebody, he put it between two fixed, what's it called in English, two fixed vices. And then they put electrodes on both sides of the bone, and they started mechanically bending it. And they discovered there is an electric current going from one electrode to the other. Okay, so that proves that when you put mechanical stress on the bone, you obtain a very, very small electrical current between two electrodes applied on both sides of the bone. It's the same principle of an piezoelectric crystal. If you take an alarm clock, for instance, and you shake your alarm clock over every time in the morning, and you start buzzing in the morning, how does it go? There is nothing mechanical inside. There is. There is a piezoelectric crystal inside your alarm clock. And what happens actually, there is an electric current being tossed inside the alarm clock on both sides of the piezoelectric crystal, it starts moving, and the movement you hear, because it's a specific frequency, it's calibrated, so you hear around one kilohertz or something, and you wake up in the morning. Now, the same is actually happening when you induct with PMM, with sufficient intensity, bones, and you can penetrate into the body, and you are able to create so-called eddy currents. What are eddy currents? Eddy currents are very, very tiny currents you create inside the body of somebody when you have an electrical field, which is created by something like a field inside the body. And that's the same principle which is being used for transcranial stimulation as well, for depression treatment, then very, very high intensities. Now, what happens is that those eddy currents, which is tiny electrical currents, actually create an revascularization, what's revascularization, that creates new blood vessels in areas where there are limited blood vessels, or not at all, for instance, you break a bone, not you, but somebody breaks it up, so really hot, and maybe you go with skiing, or whatever, and they break a bone, and the bone heals by itself, why it's being set, and it is green vascularization. By green vascularization, you transport a new by bone building materials inside most of the bloodstream and it is being laid down in where it is broken and then slowly the bones are healing. But if there are not sufficient blood vessels over there because the bone has been broken in a way where or in a location where there are not so many blood vessels then the bone doesn't start to heal and after eight nine months it's being called non-union fracture. So you get a fracture which does not get union anymore. Now then if you are applying both electromagnetic fields with sufficient power, able to penetrate and to create those small eddy currents, those electric currents, growing through the area where it's not sufficient vascular initiation, you create a new vascularization. I mean you create new vascularization, you get better bloodstream and you get better oxygenation. I mean you get better oxygenation, you get laid down there the culture you need to rebuild the bone itself. So that's why where PEMF comes in for a vascularization and for fracture healing. Sorry, that wasn't short but so it goes here.

Andy Smith 01:26:37 
No, that's good. It's a good installation. So I'm conscious of time, Ben. So if people want to investigate more, if they want to talk more about curatron products and reach out to curatronic, how can they find you? Where can they find you or your team? You know, where do they need to start?

Ben Philipson 01:26:55 
Just put it in your browser, kuratronik.com, C-U-R-A-T-R-O-N-I-C.com, kuratronik.com, and you find whatever you need. As I said before, almost 100 pages. Technical information is also a shock. There are also explanations on different devices we manufacture, also explanations on the different PEMF technologies. And of course, you can send us an email through the contact form, and we will be happy to reply.

Andy Smith 01:27:31 
Excellent. And like I mentioned before, you know, we've had a relationship for many, many years. We used to sell the Curitron devices into the UK and actually we starting, you know, to hopefully regain that business with you guys and set up an affiliate link. So at the end of this episode, the bottom of this episode in the notes section, wherever you're listening, if it's on YouTube or Spotify or whatever platform you're listening to, we're hoping to have that link that people can click and directly go straight to your website. So then also we can track whether people have listened to this podcast and then gone on to purchase. So yeah, another way to get in contact with you guys and to get a link directly to the website is to click that link. But for everyone listening, thanks so much for listening today. If you've enjoyed it, please subscribe. You don't understand how important it is to get us many subscribers to the podcast, five star reviews, and then we can encourage more people like Ben to share all their knowledge with you guys. So again, Ben, thanks for joining us today.

Ben Philipson 01:28:27 
It was my pleasure and very nice talking to you again and please give our regards to the family and in the future hope to meet again.

Andy Smith 01:28:37 
Yeah, and stay safe in these times and hopefully, as I say, by the time this podcast goes out, let's hope this is all part of history.

Ben Philipson 01:28:46 
Definitely hope so. Thank you very much for having me.