Andy Smith 00:00 
A quick disclaimer before we begin, the PEMF podcast does not contain any medical advice and the content provided is for informational purposes only. If you have any health concerns, please visit a healthcare professional. Welcome back to another episode of the PEMF podcast and today we are joined by a leading voice in the hyperbaric oxygen therapy or H-Bot space, a chiropractor, functional medicine practitioner and author of Oxygen Under Pressure. That is Jason's size. We will cover how H-Bot works as well as the benefits of how stacking it with PEMF as well as other therapies to enhance it and so much more. But I'm really excited about this episode because we brought up H-Bot quite a number of times on the PEMF podcast before. I'm a massive advocate for it, absolutely love it and if I had space at my house, I would definitely have one. So this might be the podcast that pushes me over the edge. But for anyone who hasn't seen you before, Jason, if you could just give us a little bit of background and what you're doing in the H-Bot space, what brought you here?

Dr. Jason Sonners 01:03 
Sure. Yeah. I've been in practice for about 21 years. I've been doing hyperbaric oxygen for almost 20 of those years. I got into it more or less, I'd almost say by accident. I actually had an injury myself. I had some nerve damage that just wasn't getting better doing all the other things that I had already known how to do. I was at a conference, not that dissimilar to the optimization, but something like that where they had hyperbaric chambers and they were doing demos. I actually had no idea what it was at the time. I had no intention of even ever using one or buying one. It looked interesting to me, so I wanted to give it a shot. I did about a 20-minute session and got out, started walking around. It was about 10 or 15 minutes later that I started getting almost pins and needles in my foot. That was really the first time I had felt my foot since a year and a half prior when I originally had the injury and the nerve damage. I thought, wow, am I getting this sensation because of that experience? That led me to talking to them in more detail, led me to trying a few more sessions while I was at that show, which brought me to purchasing one and utilizing it at home and treating myself. Within a few months, getting full recovery from that injury. From there, I still didn't know that I was going to use it in my office or use it for patients, let alone do all the things at this point that I've been doing. I started experimenting with some family and some friends that had some issues that each time consistently showed incredible changes. Over time, I brought it into the practice, started using it more and more. It became a foundational component of our general clinical experience for, I'd say, most patients at this point. Over the time, I realized that even though we had been doing it, there still was a huge gap in the industry where it was a difficult therapy for most people to find. A lot of practitioners didn't understand it and felt like it was a daunting device to add to their office. There's still a lot of misinformation around hyperbaric oxygen. That's really where I started getting into the research, developing curriculum, teaching hyperbarics, teaching even the practice and the business behind hyperbarics to try to make it easier for practitioners to want to utilize it, because I knew that that would be a way to really get access for more and more patients who would benefit from using it. Here we are today. I think we've trained over 650 practitioners, and we've helped to open a few dozen different clinics. It's been a great journey.

Andy Smith 04:01 
No, it's really cool. So how long ago was that first trade show that you went to and you saw that and you mentioned that you did like a 20 minute session, which I understand is kind of like scraping the surface for it, isn't it? With a session. So and you still got benefits from that quick time using it.

Dr. Jason Sonners 04:22 
Yeah. So, I mean, that that show was about 20 years ago. So, you know, at that time, people were still like hyperbolic. What's that bariatric machine you have? You know, you know, hyperbaric was not a common. Even now, it's still, I think, not as common as it could be. But, you know, certainly back then, it was like completely foreign. Yeah, I would say that to get to get really meaningful changes for most people, you know, even when I talk to patients, I tell them, you know, please don't expect much, at least for the first five to eight hours. You know, there are certain things that I think or certain people, I should say, that that may respond sooner. I would consider myself very lucky that a 20 minute session actually stimulated some, you know, at least the sensation change that, you know, I was aware of that kind of brought me back to trying more. I think I did about maybe three to four hours over the course of that weekend in that where I saw some more significant changes in that time. But it really it wasn't until I had one brought it home, you know, and like I said, I mean, it took a couple, you know, at that time, that was a one point three chamber, so soft chamber and it was air only. And so, you know, knowing what I know now, maybe if I had to edit some oxygen to that at that time, I would have seen some changes sooner. But, you know, within a few months, as I said, you know, I had full recovery. And so, you know, that's pretty standard. I'd say 20 to 40 hours is kind of the, you know, the average of what most patients are going to experience in hyperbarics, depending on what their goals are.

Andy Smith 06:05 
Yeah, OK. So if I think back 15, 20 years, I was doing my PADI diving course and learning how to dive. True. And at the dive center, I did that. They had a hyperbaric oxygen chamber. And until maybe five, 10 years ago, I only associated hyperbaric oxygen chambers with dive centers.

Dr. Jason Sonners 06:27 
Yes.

Andy Smith 06:28 
So what do you think has changed in the industry and why are we seeing these in people's homes now? Is there a difference between the ones that are in the dive centers?

Dr. Jason Sonners 06:39 
I mean, the biggest difference essentially would probably be the pressure that they go to, you know, in a diving center. Most diving chambers are going to be six atmosphere chambers, meaning they can go six times the atmospheric pressure that you and I are getting right now.

Andy Smith 06:55 
Okay.

Dr. Jason Sonners 06:55 
Most clinical chambers might be two to three atmosphere chambers, even in the hard chambers are usually significantly less pressure. And then soft chambers could be like 1.3, 1.4, or sometimes 1.5. So a fraction of the pressure. What I would say, hyperbaric definitely evolved in the diving industry. That's certainly where it got its beginnings. And specifically for the bends, decompression sickness, decompression illness, things like that. It was really through, I would say, research and interest for the early adopters of hyperbaric that they saw other, let's say, like the wound healing and some of the early carbon monoxide poisoning. It was like, hey, we use it for diving medicine, but there do seem to be a few clinical reasons why hyperbaric might be useful. And so research really developed in more of a hospital setting. And so we have in the US, there's about 15 approved indications outside the US. It varies anywhere between like six and 10 approved indications, meaning the governmental agencies think that it's useful for X, Y, and Z. But across the board, most of those are really what I would consider to be life-threatening or limb-threatening. In other words, someone's about to die or lose their vision, lose their hearing, or lose a limb. And in those cases, hyperbaric is often used as like a last effort to try to either save someone's life or save that limb. In many cases, it's effective in doing so. And so we went from diving medicine to, let's just say, severe and acute disease. But once we understood why hyperbaric was helping with those diseases, it wasn't, in my opinion, because it's a real treatment for the disease, as much as there's a handful of mechanisms of action that hyperbaric is just really consistently delivering. So some are mechanical effects, which is really the dive medicine and crushing nitrogen bubbles and helping someone with decompression sickness. But the other mechanisms have more to do with immunological effects, mitochondrial effects, and then tissue regenerative effects. And so there's a lot of research in hyperbarics on certain infections, on certain illnesses, on certain non-healing wounds or radiation burns, things like that. And when we really look at that research, we see that the way that it's helping someone who's very sick recover from this issue are the same reasons, quite honestly, that you and I might use it. And so this device went from dive medicine only to very severe condition to really just understanding that most of us need a boost of our immune system or a reduction in inflammation, or most of us need improved mitochondrial function, or most of us desire some type of tissue or cell regeneration, especially from an optimization or performance standpoint. And so it's really just this tool is one of the only ways to deliver oxygen at a level exponentially higher than what you and I are getting right now. And prior to somebody going into a hyperbaric chamber for the first time, they've been limited to how much oxygen their body can carry based on atmospheric pressure and red blood cell carrying capacity. And hyperbaric is the first time that that human would have experienced 2, 3, 4, 10, 12, 15, 18, 20 times the amount of oxygen that they've been carrying their whole life. And all of a sudden, that surplus of oxygen carries with it a series of impacts that everybody gets to experience no matter what their goals are or what their health concerns are. And with that massive increase in oxygen, we see some pretty incredible benefits, whether that's getting someone from sickness back to, let's just say, asymptomatic or at least get away from their diagnosis, or to take someone who was moderately healthy and say, hey, I really want to optimize myself. Oxygen is a critical ingredient in that entire continuum of health.

Andy Smith 11:35 
Okay, I'm very guilty in taking people too far into the technical side and I want to take a real step back and I just want to ask you just for anyone that's tuning into this episode and and has absolutely no knowledge on what hyperbaric is before what is hyperbaric oxygen therapy and you know what does it typically look like.

Dr. Jason Sonners 11:57 
So it's important to understand that the reason that you and I are breathing right now and actually pulling oxygen out of the air we're breathing is because there's an atmosphere. That atmosphere provides a pressure, and the pressure of that atmosphere is what drives oxygen once we breathe it into our lungs, into our circulation, so that red blood cells, which are the type of cell that carry oxygen, can bind to it, carry it throughout our body, and then deliver it to our cells. When we go up in elevation, like, you know, for us in the US, if I went to Colorado, you know, a higher elevation, a higher altitude area, we find that it's harder to breathe. And we say that there's less oxygen at altitude, but it's not really that there's less percentage of oxygen. So whether you and I were at sea level or we were at the top of Mount Everest, the air we're breathing is 21% oxygen everywhere on planet Earth. The reason it's harder to breathe at elevation is because there's less pressure. So as you leave the Earth's surface and go to the top of a mountain, go hiking, or go to an area of higher elevation inland, we lose pressure. And as we lose pressure, we lose the driving force of oxygen from our lungs into circulation. Hyperbaric is the exact opposite of that. So what hyperbaric is doing is it's creating a temporary increase in atmospheric pressure. And as we increase the surrounding pressure, you know, around our body, we can drive exceptionally higher levels of oxygen into circulation. And so that's really all it's doing. We could add oxygen to it, or we could just breathe air. Both would still deliver a higher amount of oxygen than what you and I are getting right now. But regardless of what you're breathing, it's really the pressure that makes it work, because oxygen will follow the pressure gradient that we're creating inside the chamber.

Andy Smith 14:05 
So if we deliver a hundred percent oxygen to me sitting here on the podcast to you. There's this it's not going to be used by the body the same way it would be under pressure and inside a ride chamber.

Dr. Jason Sonners 14:19 
Like most of us have gone to the doctor, they've put one, you know, a pulse oximeter on your finger, right? And as long as you're, you know, and you stick this on your finger, and as long as you're moderately healthy, you should be 97, 98, 99% saturated. And so that's the maximum red blood cell carrying capacity. And so if you were 98% saturated, let's just say, and you had 100% oxygen and a mask that you put on your face, you can go from 98 to 100. But you could never be more than 100% of anything, right? So right now, we are both limited to how much oxygen we can carry based on the pressure and red blood cell carrying capacity. When you go into a chamber and you increase the pressure around the person or sort of increased atmospheric pressure temporarily, you're actually bypassing red blood cell carrying capacity. And now you're dissolving oxygen into the plasma of the blood at levels that under normal pressure would be impossible. And now the plasma becomes a reservoir of extra oxygen. That's really an enormous reservoir is, you know, depending on how much pressure somebody's exposed to, what percentage of oxygen they're breathing while they're in there, and then how much time they stay. Those are the three variables that really help to saturate the plasma to become this reservoir of excess oxygen.

Andy Smith 15:50 
No, it makes sense. That's really good. So how can, how long can these benefits last? You've mentioned what happens to the cells and the difference between using it under pressure and not under pressure. Typically, how long will those benefits go on for if someone has done, you know, an hour in a age, but

Dr. Jason Sonners 16:08 
So there's, there's two ways to look at that. One would be to some extent, you know, how long does the oxygen stay in circulation and how long does somebody benefit from that exposure? And then there's because you've had over a series of sessions, you've had this, um, this change in your biology, essentially in your physiology because of a number of sessions back to back, you know, what kind of benefits or changes happen from that. So, you know, essentially what I would say is most people, again, it depends on pressure percentage of oxygen and time, but let's just say that, you know, the oxygen that we get could stick around maybe, maybe four, six to eight hours max, you know, you know, eight hours later, you're pretty much back to baseline, but that doesn't mean that those benefits stop. It's like, that's how long the oxygen lasts, but now it has stimulated a number of changes. So in the short term, you can say that it's stimulated an increase in mitochondrial function, which means essentially an increase in your cell's ability to make energy. So you'll have, you know, let's say a day or a day and a half worth of increased energy production. Uh, it'll stimulate your immune response. So it'll stimulate your immune system's ability to fight infection. And so you can get, you know, a length of time of that benefit. It'll also start to reduce inflammation pretty quickly. And so those are some of the short term benefits, but in the long term, it actually stimulates things like increased size of the mitochondria. In other words, like let's say you had, you know, the mitochondria to me is like the engine of the cell. So let's say you had a car with a small engine. Well, imagine because of oxygen exposures, that engine would grow in size, you know, like a four cylinder to an eight cylinder. Well, that's, you know, you're capable of making a lot more energy if you had an eight cylinder engine versus a four cylinder engine. If you kept exposing someone to oxygen over a longer period of time, instead of having, let's say one engine, you could have two or three or four or six engines.

Andy Smith 18:21 
Hm.

Dr. Jason Sonners 18:21 
And so another benefit of repetitive exposures is at first the mitochondria will grow in size, but next the mitochondria will actually start to replicate. And now you actually have more mitochondria per cell, which is going to be capable of an exponential increase in energy production. But long-term also stimulates things like new blood vessel growth or new collagen growth and soft tissue repair like ligament muscle tendon repair. It also mobilizes an increase in stem cells. So in the short term, like one hour to three to five hours, there's just like those mitochondrial or inflammatory and immune system benefits. But once you've hit like 15 to 20 hours or more of therapy over time, you start to get changes in cellular repair that you keep forever. You know, once you grow new blood vessels, they don't go away after you've grown them. Once you've increased mitochondrial function, a lot of that sticks with you. Once you've mobilized stem cells, you get a repair in terms of cellular repair or tissue repair that you get to keep forever or until it gets injured again or whatever the case is. So there's a range of benefits based on how much exposure somebody has over a period of time.

Andy Smith 19:40 
Yeah, I think that's a great analogy in the way you've explained that as well because similar to PEMF, you know, we normally tell people the results last about eight hours. People are thinking, well, what's the point in doing it every single day if I'm only getting eight hours of benefit rather than 24 hours. But like you say, the effects it's having in the body and on the cells during that time lasting a lot longer and the benefits of that and increased sleep. And, you know, people because I've used a H bot a couple of times and the sleep I got afterwards was just unbelievable, you know, like falling into a new level of deep sleep and that in itself, you know, the repair that happens during that time is incredible.

Dr. Jason Sonners 20:19 
Right. So the you know, the oxygen is gone in that time. But you can't ever discount the benefits and the recovery that you got from that sleep. Exactly right. Yeah, it's great.

Andy Smith 20:29 
Yeah, so is there, I know this is a hard question to answer on the PEMF world as well, but is there a particular condition that you see more either the HPOT benefits or that you see more people coming through your doors with that condition because they want to use HPOT? You know, is that something you can answer in terms of just something that you see such a turnaround a lot of times with?

Dr. Jason Sonners 20:57 
Yeah, I mean, I would say that we don't, we don't really specialize in any one particular area of, of health or disease, you know, we, you know, we really are open. When somebody comes to us, and we're trying to decide, you know, is this a good therapy? Is it appropriate? What's the protocol going to look like? Is it going to be safe? You know, those kinds of things. You know, my first question is always, you know, what are you coming for? What's your goal? And I need to answer, do I think hyperbaric is going to help you meet that goal? Because the last thing I ever want to do is waste anybody's time or money, you know. And so, because hyperbaric, like PEMF, I mean, these are systemic therapies that aren't really, you know, I, even when I teach this to practitioners, I'm like, we need to get away from the treatment of disease. Yeah, because none of these things are ever going to be classified as like, the successful treatment and cure for X, Y and Z. But I don't even want it to be classified that way, because it isn't. It's, it's giving the body the chance to do what the body does by itself, which is the body's what's in charge of healing. Right? There might be something interfering with that process, something's missing, that if we gave it to the body, it could utilize that to heal, or the body might be getting exposed to something else excessively, that's interfering with the body's ability to heal. But either way, it's the body's ability to heal, which is what we're trying to tap into. Right? So if that patient gets better, it's not because Jason did anything so amazing, or that I'm responsible for it, it's just that we're trying to offer, you know, a way to get rid of excessive toxicity, essentially, and to get exposed to things that you might be deficient in, and create an environment that allows that body to heal itself. And so that being said, though, yes, people come in, they say, you know, I have X, Y or Z, you know, will you treat me? You know, I have MS, you know, is this a treatment for MS? I have cancer, is this a treatment for cancer? And I'm very careful to say that, you know, we have patients with MS who we see, we have patients with cancer who we see, or post stroke or anything like this. But not because it's a treatment for you, it's really a supportive therapy that allows your body to, again, you know, heal more efficiently. And so for us, though, the people that respond, I'd say, the fastest and most significantly, I would say, people with a variety of different autoimmune issues. And I think the reason for that is because hyperbaric is so effective at reducing inflammation, and rebalancing the immune system. And then I would say neurological issues like everything from, you know, children with developmental delays, or on the autism spectrum, all the way through, you know, MS, post stroke recovery, and even neurodegenerative disease, you know, the brain uses, the brain makes up about 2% of our body mass, and it uses 20 to 24% of all the oxygen that we breathe. And so it's incredibly metabolically active and needs a lot of oxygen for function. And so we do see that neurological issues respond incredibly well to getting an increased level of oxygen, whether that's from a healing standpoint, and a recovery standpoint, or really, even using oxygen as like a cognitive performance enhancing tool.

Andy Smith 24:44 
So a few people I've spoken to about HBOT and you know cuz I've said to them the past that I've had amazing results using them they say to me that they would never want to get in a chamber because they're claustrophobic. Is that something you get quite often because I you know you just say to me you've just got to try it you know just got to try the benefits but. They're like well I can't be put into a tube and either zipped in or you know locked in for an hour it's just not in not in my capacity is. Is there something you say to people help people through that roadblock.

Dr. Jason Sonners 25:22 
Yeah, you know, and this is just an opinion. So I don't want to, I'm not trying to hurt anybody's feelings out there. Having been doing this for nearly 20 years, you know, we've treated thousands and thousands of people inside these chambers. It is something I hear a lot. It's something that most people feel some, you know, there's a probably a continuum of that experience, you know. But it's a thought that a lot of people do express. And I would say this, there's probably on the on the very far range of that continuum, there are people that like legitimately claustrophobic, like they have a real phobia of being in closed in spaces for sure. And maybe those people, you know, aren't likely going to go into a chamber. But I would also say that those people aren't also calling my office, right? So like, I tell a lot of practitioners, if they're calling you, they already have a thought in their mind, they're nervous, but they must not be like the absolute far extreme of that story, because they wouldn't even call you if they were. But even inside of that, there's a lot of people who still express that concern. What I find in a lot of those people is that as we show them how the machine works, we show them how they could operate the equipment all by themselves if they wanted to, we basically hand the control back over to them. And that a lot of that experience isn't just the amount of space that they're given. It's almost like the fact that they're in this thing and they don't know if they if they wanted to get out, how would they get out? And do they actually have their own control to get out? And so if we take our time with those people, walk them through it nice and slowly, you know, not push them at our speed, but allow them to experience the chamber at their speed. And I hand the keys back to them. And I'm like, this is how the thing works. Open this, turn this, do this, do that. Essentially, in most chambers, they could do everything from the inside that we do from the outside. And then I just say, listen, but even though you could control it yourself, I prefer that you don't, you know, I pay my technicians to take care of you, they take their job very seriously, they love to take care of people, just let us know you want to get out, and we'll get you out. And, and people that are a little bit more nervous, we even do some trial sessions where we like, let them come in, they close the door, they open the door, they turn on the machine, they shut off the machine, we just let them get a little bit more comfortable with the device, so that they're a little less nervous. And that seems to, you know, in 20 years, and thousands and thousands of patients in a variety of different chamber, you know, styles, there's literally only three people that I can think of that wouldn't go into the chamber.

Andy Smith 28:22 
So just for my own benefit, um, one thing when I was in the chamber before I forgot to ask was if you're at full pressure, how quickly if you, if someone wanted to get out, could they get out? Is it, did they, cause my understanding is they still need to decompress slowly and slave safely, but is that a process of 20 minutes or is that a couple of minutes or can you literally hit a button and pop out?

Dr. Jason Sonners 28:49 
So when we're doing this, just to go back to the claustrophobia conversation, when we're doing this with somebody who is nervous, we pressurize that chamber exceptionally slowly on their first session or two. That way, if they have a panic moment and want to get out, we could open that door literally in a second. And part of that's also to help gain some trust and rapport in the process. Anytime we've had somebody panic, that panic would have been in the first minute or two minutes or three minutes. It's not like you got to full pressure, you're 45 minutes into a session, and all of a sudden you're having a moment. I've never actually even seen that. I've only seen it be in the earlier stages. So we create an environment that allows us to build that trust over time. But to answer your question, for most people at full pressure, it really also depends on what pressure you are at. But in most environments, you could get out in a minute or two minutes at most, and still do that very safely. It wouldn't be the most comfortable decompression, but it wouldn't be dangerous. In most situations, we travel at about I mean, we use PSI, pounds per square inch. But if somebody was at, let's say they were at two atmospheres, that's about 15 PSI. And we would travel at about one to two minutes per PSI. So we do usually go slowly, like 15 minutes to get out from the chamber at two atmospheres. That's not for safety purposes. That's strictly for comfort. But from a safety standpoint, you're also required to be able to go from the highest pressure that you are treating someone to door open patient out in two minutes or less. And so that's just the safety requirement for running a chamber. But again, yeah, you could get out pretty quickly a soft chamber. I think I've gotten out of in like 28 seconds.

Andy Smith 31:10 
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jason Sonners 31:11 
Um, which I think is pretty fast, but you know, again, it's not super comfortable, but it's not dangerous

Andy Smith 31:17 
And I don't want to labor on the kind of, um, you know, sticking points are getting in and out of chambers, but there was one more question that I want to just cover because I know it's something that comes up quite a lot and that's, um, equalization and pressurization and things because, you know, like I mentioned before on this podcast, um, I've done a patty and I'm quite experienced in the equalizing my ears, um, but my wife in particular, when we go on airplanes, she really struggles, you know, and she's verbally said to me before, you know, I'd never get in a, in a H-bot because I can't equalize my ears, um, again, is that something that if you've got techniques that you can easily train people to do that and, you know, is, or will it eventually just pressurize if, if they just do nothing.

Dr. Jason Sonners 31:58 
So I mean, if you went slow enough, you could probably pressurize and almost keep it under the radar, like the body would just slowly equalize on its own. And we've done that in really severe cases where it's like, you know, we'll take 20 to 30 minutes to get to full pressure. Sometimes we've done that with kids, like they just don't even understand how to equalize. And so we just have to kind of sneak it in. The key is to not, A, to not get scared whenever possible and or to not hurt anybody. Cause if, if they're already nervous and then we're pressurizing them at whatever pace we want to go. And now they're getting uncomfortable. It's even painful. Like it's never going to work. And so my, my rule is you should never have pain inside the chamber. And if you're having discomfort and it's becoming painful, we have to bail because it's, it's just never worth pushing through that discomfort. You know, risk to benefit ratio becomes a problem. I spend a lot of time with new, you know, new people coming in for their first dive. We spend a lot of time going over, you know, a range of six or eight different equalization techniques. And again, for most people, we can get it done. There's very few people that I've ever had that really just can't equalize. And, and those are usually, they've had ear surgeries and there's a lot of scar tissue in their tympanic membrane. And so it's just really not flexible.

Andy Smith 33:30 
Hm.

Dr. Jason Sonners 33:31 
outside of that, you know, using a number of different techniques, we've been able to get almost everybody through there. And then not only do they learn how to manage the chamber, but then airplanes become, you know, easier and other areas of equalization. And after the first few sessions, the tympanic membrane starts to become more flexible. And so if you can get somebody in on their first session, even if it means you don't go to full pressure, you know, you get halfway to pressure, you stay there for a little while you come out next session, you go a little deeper, then you come out next session, you go a little deeper, even just doing it that way, allows people to have an experience that, you know, gets them to adapt to the change in pressure more easily, and more comfortably. And then, you know, we don't tend to have those issues going forward.

Andy Smith 34:19 
Any major contract indications people that absolutely cannot get in a chamber or.

Dr. Jason Sonners 34:25 
Yeah. I mean, if you can't equalize, you can't go. That's rule number one. And rule number two would be pneumothorax. So someone with a pop lung cannot go. If they've had a pneumo in the past, but it's fully recovered, then they could. But an active untreated pneumothorax, and that's really it. I mean, there are some other relative contraindications that require a conversation and consultation, but those are the only two real absolute contraindication.

Andy Smith 34:57 
What about pacemakers? Cause that's something we can't use PEMF with. So we, that's our, our absolute no-no is it is a pacemaker is, are they generally safe in HBOT or again, is that one of the grey areas?

Dr. Jason Sonners 35:10 
So it's not really grey. In general, anything battery operated is a conversation. And so for different reasons, like you got, you know, in PEMF, we're utilizing electrical impulses, and we don't want to interfere with another electrical impulse, right? With hyperbaric, it's just that batteries are also pressure sensitive. So that's on the relative list, and it just means that we have to call, check with the manufacturer and make sure that the battery is rated for pressure. Yeah, yeah. And what pressure it's rated for. So, you know, if it's rated for six atmospheres for six hours, you know, going to two atmospheres for 60 minutes is not a problem at all. You know, it's basically that thought process.

Andy Smith 35:59 
Okay, cool. And with this kind of shift in HBOTs being kind of only used in professional settings and, you know, like myself, I'm I'm quite keen to buy one for my home. Do you think that's a good thing, having having devices at home that people are using themselves or would you prefer that they're used in a trained environment?

Dr. Jason Sonners 36:20 
I usually would want people to at least partially just because these things are not inexpensive, right? So, you know, I hate for somebody to go and buy a chamber, turn out that, you know, they don't like it, or they're having trouble using it. And then they just have a really expensive, you know, you know, clothes, clothes hanger that they throw all their laundry on or something. So, you know, a lot of times I would try to get somebody to use it, go somewhere, use it, have an experience, have a, you know, a number of sessions just to know if it's something that they're interested and likely to utilize. And when it comes to like soft chamber usage, I'm a big fan of people using chambers at home. I don't love how frequent it's becoming to put hard chambers and higher pressure at home. Partially because I think a lot of people think that more is better. Yeah. And now they're just treating themselves at much higher pressures than are necessary. And two, because you could do almost everything wrong with a soft chamber. And the risk to benefit ratio is never terribly skewed, you know, towards very dangerous. As you go up in pressure, the risks become exceptionally higher. And without really knowing that or understanding that, that becomes a bigger concern for me to have. And, you know, especially because people try to, if some is good, more is better. And now they're treating at high pressures frequently, without really knowing or understanding any of the risks and or benefits of different pressures. That I don't love, quite honestly. But you know, I've even had a number of people who've put higher pressure chambers in their home actually take our courses, because they understand that there's a higher level of risk. That way, they're at least becoming more educated on what, you know, what that ought to look like. But

Andy Smith 38:21 
I think it's a really important point because exactly the same in the PEMF industry is that people think that if they spend 40,000 pounds on a or dollars on a on a PEMF device, they're going to get the best device. They may not necessarily be getting the best device for them at home, you know, they're they're getting a super high intensity product that is better suited in clinics or and has some more risks associated with it of overuse and things like that. So, yeah, it's an important point because, you know, I'm I'm also this this podcast is really educating me. It's great because, you know, for someone that's possibly looking in the future, again, a home, you know, my view again is is more expensive. The hard shell is better. It's, you know, it's got all these different benefits. But if it's going to be used on a more frequent basis and in a safer space, then maybe I don't need to spend 50,000 pounds on one. You know, but we're still talking about 10,000 dollars when we when we talk about the soft show at the bottom end, really, for a good chamber. So these are expensive bits of care. Right.

Dr. Jason Sonners 39:24 
For a lot of people that are building out many optimization centers in their home, it's also one thing if, let's say, Hyperbaric was the only tool you had.

Andy Smith 39:36 
Mm.

Dr. Jason Sonners 39:36 
But in many cases, for people doing this kind of thing, you know, it's not right. They have, you know, they've gotten a PEMF and they've gotten maybe some hydrogen. Now they're getting a chamber, they're going to get a sauna. It's like the other thing, too, is like once you start understanding the synergy of these different modalities and tools, you don't need the highest, strongest, most powerful individual modality, because now you're really honing in on synergy. And when you're honing in on synergy, you can really get, you know, a lot of benefits from each one of these devices and even more so because you're creating some amount of stacking with other technologies that are all, they're all different, but they all have some overlap that makes, you know, magnifies the benefits of each one when used together.

Andy Smith 40:29 
Yeah, which perfectly brings me to my next question, which is, you know, we, our listeners will know all the benefits of PEMF therapy, may not know the benefits until this episode of, of HBOT, but they really, really work, work amazingly together. And when everybody asks me, you know, what other therapy works well, you know, we normally point people at red light because PEMF and red light is good work together. But the most powerful for me really is, is PEMF and HBOT because of the benefits of separating the cells and things. So what's your take on using PEMF and HBOT and the benefits of stacking those two and what's your kind of protocols when it comes to that?

Dr. Jason Sonners 41:11 
Yeah. And quite honestly, you know, HPOT, PEMF and red light is like, for me, sort of the triple exposure that, you know, magnifies each one even more. So I'm in full agreement with what you just said with regard to that. You know, there are certain things they're going to have in common, like all three of those devices have an impact on, let's say, total systemic inflammation. All three of them are going to have impact on energy production. You know, all three of them are going to have impact on some immune system, you know, applications. But all three of them are doing it from three totally different angles. Right? So there's overlap with some of the result. But what I would say is there's almost no overlap between the pathway that each one of those devices is getting to that result. And the reason that that's important is it's not redundant. In other words, like, if somebody's goal was to reduce inflammation, as an example, you could say, well, hyperbaric reduces inflammation, PEMF reduces inflammation, I already have a PEMF, Matt, I don't need hyperbaric. But when you actually understand that, even though they all three will reduce inflammation, understanding that the pathway is so different tells you that the effect you're going to have is not an overlapping effect, it's actually a magnifying effect. If I can reduce inflammation here, here and here in three different ways, then the total anti inflammatory effect is going to be exponentially greater, because we're addressing it through three different pathways. And so I think that's an important distinction to make to help people understand that that's really where synergy becomes so incredibly powerful and beneficial when utilizing a number of technologies, you know, together. For me, we usually would do well, when I'm using hyperbaric at lower pressures, let's say 1.5 or below, we typically would do PEMF first, red light second, hyperbaric third. And for me, that's just like if I was looking at what the cellular responses are. And I was trying to basically pave the way for each therapy to maximize the impact of the previous therapy, so to speak. When we go to higher pressures, again, oxygen at much higher pressures has additional benefits for some people, but there are some additional risks. And so because of that, I swapped the red light and hyperbaric. And so I still would typically do PEMF first, hyperbaric second, and then red light third. But the other thing I say to people is if we're limited to the number of sessions we're going to do, in other words, someone came to me and they were like, listen, I'm only going to do 10 sessions of all of these devices. I think the order could be very important. But if somebody's using these like you or I might, in terms of building programs with specific goals and with the intention of utilizing these therapies for like years on end, I start to think that the order becomes a lot less important. In other words, if you're getting PEMF on a pretty regular basis, if you're getting red light on a pretty regular basis, and you're getting hyperbaric on a pretty regular basis, you're going to get the benefits of all of those. And you're going to be getting the synergy of all of those. And you're going to be getting that for hopefully months and years on end. I start really relaxing on like the firmness of the order, the timing, just knowing that each one of these devices is very powerful on their own. And so as long as over the course of months and years, you're getting hours of this and hours of this and hours of that, and you're really supplying the body with those ingredients on a quasi regular basis, you're going to get the amplifying effect and the synergy by doing so for sure.

Andy Smith 46:10 
Yeah, that was a really good way of explaining all that. One other thing that, I mean, time is obviously a massive constraint for a lot of people and, and hyperbaric oxygen is, you know, it's a long time consuming time

Dr. Jason Sonners 46:23 
It's time consuming.

Andy Smith 46:25 
Yeah, I mean, you know, it's the quickest time you probably get in and out of a chamber as an hour. Is that kind of really, you know, for a good session or?

Dr. Jason Sonners 46:34 
I mean, there are, there are times or reasons, particularly like on a performance standpoint where like 30 to 45 minutes might be appropriate, but I'd say the, you know, the international average of session across the whole world is probably 60 minutes.

Andy Smith 46:50 
Yeah, so is there an argument to stack them all at the same time and it's a question I wanted to ask you actually because we, you know, the old school hyperbaric chambers where the whole thing will be filled of oxygen. The risk of people taking phones electronic equipment or that sort of thing was complete like, you know, out the window. But now we see Gary Brecker in in his hyperbaric chamber sitting there on his laptop, speaking to people on the phone, that sort of thing. I mean, first of all, really, my question is the newer hyperbaric chambers now that is is that OK advised it's it's you can use them and if so, you know, can we bring PEMF devices in? Can we bring red light devices in and do them all within that hour?

Dr. Jason Sonners 47:37 
Here's what I'll say. When it was 100% oxygen environment, it's a 100% zero tolerance for anything that could go wrong. Because when something goes wrong, which is incredibly rare, it'd be catastrophic.

Andy Smith 47:53 
And just for our audience that's you know the old style was to fill the chamber with a hundred percent oxygen now what we do I believe is it's nasal so we're breathing in high levels of oxygen but it's not necessarily filling the whole chamber is that correct.

Dr. Jason Sonners 48:09 
That's correct. And it's not necessarily the old way or a new way. Like, chambers have always either been pressurized one way or the other. And in the US, there's still quite a bit of 100% pressurized chambers. But what I would say is that the real issue isn't, or the reason, the reason that chambers, or that batteries couldn't go into chambers was not the percentage of oxygen, it's because a lot of these batteries are sensitive to pressure changes. Okay, so just like if you went, you know, you flew to the US to go to that show in Austin, when you pack something under the plane, one of the first things they ask you is, do you have any lithium ion batteries in this bag? Because you're not supposed to put lithium ion batteries under the airplane. Why? Because there's excessive pressure changes that the that the luggage compartment goes through. And two, because if there was a fire in the luggage compartment, there's really nothing you could do about it. Yeah, in the cabin and years ago, we used to hear about a phone here or there catching fire on an airplane in even in the cabin.

Andy Smith 49:16 
Hmm.

Dr. Jason Sonners 49:17 
And again, that's because using the phone creates heat and because pressure changes heat the battery up even more. We see a lot less of that today than ever before, but the fact remains that lithium ion batteries, especially, are pressure sensitive. So I still stand by the fact that we shouldn't be doing that. Electronics in the chamber that are low voltage and running from a power source outside the chamber is one thing. And that's always been something that chambers have been used and doing, which is totally OK.

Andy Smith 49:55 
But I get. Is there a way of running the wires then? Yeah, you didn't write from the inside to outside.

Dr. Jason Sonners 50:00 
And so back to PEMF or other things, if we're running something from an external power source and it follows the regulations of what voltage and amperage are allowed inside of a chamber, those could be yeses. But I still don't love the idea and I still stand pretty strong and we teach that consistently when we're teaching these courses. Batteries and chambers just don't get along very well. Now, if that battery, let's go back to pacemakers for a minute. If that battery was tested at six atmospheres for whatever, for 60 minutes and you're only going to two or three atmospheres for 60 minutes, it's good to go. But the fact is, is when it comes to a lot of these devices, like phones as an example, the newest iPhone has been tested for six feet of seawater for 30 minutes. Even a soft chamber goes to about 10 feet of seawater and you'll typically spend about an hour in there. So you can't say that something that's been tested at six feet for 30 minutes is good to go for 10 feet at 60 minutes. But if we started to do that testing, we could certainly have a different conversation. But right now, nobody's really been willing to take on the liability associated with testing these things and making a statement. Though a lot of the chamber manufacturers just tell people it's okay. Now, one of the things is, let's just say you had a battery issue inside the chamber. If it was pressurized with air, is that chamber going to blow up? No. But are you still stuck in something that you can't get out of immediately and there's a fire? Yes. And so that's really why I'm still such a stickler for this conversation that way. Yeah. But going back to the stacking of the therapies, I would also say this. Sometimes, depending on the goal, but sometimes when I'm using red light, the power density of that red light might be really important. And putting that power density inside the chamber is probably not gonna happen. Or if that power density also elicits a lot of heat, it's not comfortable to be inside the chamber and be really hot. It's not like you wanna be doing a sauna at the same time. And so for those reasons, I tend to not do them or even look for opportunities to do them at the same time. I look for opportunities to say, all right, well, red light could be a pretty short exposure. I'm gonna do that this morning before I get ready for work. PEMF, I'll do midday right after this interview. I'll go lay on my PEMF mat for a little while. And then tonight, before I go to bed, I'll jump in my chamber, wind down, relax, and let it get me ready for a really good night's sleep. I tend to maybe look for separations because I'm trying to get the most out of each one sometimes in that way.

Andy Smith 53:02 
Yeah, in the different protocols. That's good. And that's one of my questions actually was kind of, would you necessarily have to do one immediately off the other? Or could you spread them out?

Dr. Jason Sonners 53:11 
them out. Again, especially if it becomes part of a program where you're doing this on a regular basis, you're still going to get the synergy even when we spread them out, you know. Okay, cool.

Andy Smith 53:23 
Again, kind of coming back to that question before, it's in types of, if you're recommending a protocol of PEMF red light and H bar, is there anyone that you think would be the most beneficial for that? So maybe they haven't responded to the H bar, they haven't responded to PEMF, but you want to kind of hit them with, from all the different angles, you know, is there, again, is there a category that you would say that that's going to be most effective for using all three?

Dr. Jason Sonners 53:54 
Quite honestly most people. If you have, if you're possibly carrying, so I often talk about like a plant analogy, where, like, it's a long story that we probably don't have the time to go through the whole thing. But essentially, you know, plants need sunlight, they need water, they need nutrition, and, you know, they need to not have toxic soil, as an example. And, you know, if that plant has toxic soil, it doesn't matter how much water and sunlight and food you give it, it's still going to be sick. Or if that thing is not getting the right amount of sunlight, but it got all the water it needed, all the right nutrition, it had clean soil, it's still not going to do well, like a plant needs what a plant needs in order to express help. Yeah, I don't view us any differently than that. We have a certain requirement for healthy living. There's a, there's a voltage to all of our cells, there's an electricity to, to our nervous system's ability to communicate with neighboring and nearby cells, there's an electric component to our ability to contract muscles, right? So there's, there's a whole chemical electrical component to our body. And if you know, voltage and an ability for self signaling from an electric standpoint, or if we're disconnected from our grounding source, which most of us are like, if we're deficient in, I'll just say electric electricity for the lack of a better way to say it, like, there's no amount of hyperbaric that's going to correct that. If we're if we're light deficient, which most people are, there's maybe there's no amount of PEMF that's going to fix that or hyperbaric that's going to fix that. If we have hypoxia issues, which again, most people do either from toxicity or chronic inflammation or both, like there's no amount of red light that's going to fix the hypoxia. So quite honestly, to me, these are like foundational necessary ingredients that as an organism, we need the right amount and type of electricity, we need the right amount and type of light, we need the right amount and type of oxygen, just like we need exercise and proper nutrition. These are foundational to health period, end of story, non negotiable. Now, yeah, some people may need one or two of those more so and somebody else may need one or different one or two more so than somebody else. But essentially, unless you're creating an environment that these humans are getting all of the right ingredients for a period of time, they really only work better together than they would individually for so many

Andy Smith 56:54 
Yeah, yeah. I think that's so important. Like you say, you know, the three pillars of health in there are oxygen, magnetism and light. And it's three elements that if we didn't have one of those, eventually we would die, we would decompose. So it's, you know, it's it's and the world we live in, which is something I say a lot of, you know, quite frequently, it's so toxic because of all the different radiation that we got around us. You know, I tested my blood to see what happens after 10 minutes of one of our PEMF devices. And I was expecting to see a good sample versus another good sample when I tested it. And it was a really bad sample, which which worried me, you know, and I thought, I'm a class as a UK buyer hacker. Why is my blood so sticky? And it was because I tested it at four o'clock in the afternoon after I've been sitting on my ass for eight hours and in front of all this Wi-Fi where I'm sitting now. It has a reverse effect. You know, we're not exposed to sunlight right now. I'm not exposed to good levels of oxygen. I'm not moving. So the world we're living in is undoing all this, all this good. And what a lot of this tech is doing is just is just reinforcing that and bringing it back into what we need. So, you know, that's why what I believe is why disease is skyrocketing at the moment because of pretty much the world we're living in.

Dr. Jason Sonners 58:15 
Right. Like, you know, some people say like, our ancestors didn't have hyperbaric and they were fine. I'm like, yeah. And if we lived in that world, we wouldn't need it either. You know, I'm yeah, I don't, I don't want to substitute tech for what we ought to have had exposure to in the past. Or say that the technology is critical, and humans can't be healthy without technology. I don't believe that to be true at all. I believe that all the technology that we're using is literally just to undo the consequences of, you know, the current world and lifestyle that we've all been sort of, you know, tricked, tricked into believing that we need it.

Andy Smith 58:58 
Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's the thing. And it's being realistic, isn't it? You know, if me and you said, right, from tomorrow, we're going to go and live in a cave and we don't need all this technology. You know, how are we going to feed the family? So it's it's just being real, isn't it? And using this tech safely to kind of bring these things back into our lives. That's it. You mentioned about half the hard and the soft shell chambers and where you kind of would see better suited at home. And if you've got a couple of key differences, because it's a big debate in the HPOT world. You know, is is a soft shell any good? Is it is it worth even investing in? Are hard shells better because they go down to low, you know, that sort of thing? Am I right in thinking that if me as a HPOT user, if I'm going to go to a clinic and use it once a month, I want to get down as low pressure as possible in a hard shell and maybe at home, I'm using a soft shell at lower pressures or am I completely on the wrong track there?

Dr. Jason Sonners 01:00:00 
I recently did a whole research study on high pressure versus low pressure. We ran a bunch of people through it, trying to answer that question because that's the most common question I get. Um, and I can't tell you that the results of the research I did are like written in stone and this is like the permanent answer, you know, it only, it only stimulated even more questions quite honestly, but in some areas, what we found was there was similar impact at lower and higher pressure, in which case we can make the argument that if you're using lower pressure over a longer period of time, you should have a similar impact. In other cases, we found that higher pressure did have certain effects that lower pressure just did not have. But on the flip side, we also found that lower pressure had certain impacts that higher pressure did not have. And so really what that is, is now it's opening up a conversation of like, there's not one size fits all programming. And even if you had access to a high pressure chamber, that doesn't mean it's the right one for you. Or just because you have a chamber at home, doesn't mean you should never get exposure to higher pressures periodically. And I think what we're figuring out now is that different pressures are having a different impact. And just like everything else that, I mean, we could say the same thing about PEMF, right? There's different frequencies of PEMF, there's different intensities of PEMF.

Andy Smith 01:01:33 
Mmh.

Dr. Jason Sonners 01:01:33 
Right. And so similar questioning and similar research down the road and similar answering of like, in some cases, all of it's going to get us to the same place. And in specific instances, different versions may be very important to create certain pathways. And so we're Yeah, we're still in the beginning of understanding that. But, you know, any bit is better than none of it. And I think that's true of light and PEMF and oxygen. And the sicker you are, or the bigger your health concerns are, or, or the lofty or your health goals are, I think the more specific you need to become with regard to like, let's say, which pressures over which periods of time to get the responses that you're trying to get, you know, and I do a lot of work with people and clinics trying to maximize the protocols to make sure that people are applying it as closely and accurately as we can based on the information we have today.

Andy Smith 01:02:40 
No that's great and that helped me understand as well H-bot because like you say it's common question we get in the PEMF world as well as you know the debate is always is low intensity or high intensity better. My answer to that someone that's been using PEMF therapy for 15 years is both you know my protocols I use a low intensity every single day and I use a high intensity probably once twice a week because of the benefits that the two of them both both give and. The body can get used to certain things it's thrown different ones in there it's ability so so if you have access to is a simple answer to that. Low and high a mixture would be a good protocol.

Dr. Jason Sonners 01:03:23 
Yeah. And that could be because you have a range of pressure options at home, or that could be because you're doing soft chamber at home, but periodically visiting a clinic to get some higher pressure exposures. You know, there's a couple ways to mix and match that. But yeah, I think I view, and I'm sure you do the same based on what you just said about, you know, different devices and PEMF. Like, I view all of this through the hormetic lens and understanding how to basically create a varied protein. The same way I vary my exercise is the same way I vary my nutrition is the same way I vary my hyperbarics. It's the same way I vary my sauna. It's the same way I vary my, you know, higher dose red light exposures on my PEMF, like constant and never ending variation amongst different strategies, protocols and devices over months and years is going to be the way that all of us get the most out of any of this process.

Andy Smith 01:04:22 
Yeah, yeah. Okay. No, good. And when it comes to oxygen purity, what do you think is more important, the pressure or the oxygen? Because a lot of people are sort of saying that their oxygen is more pure and they have better, you know, better source of oxygen. And this is, is, is that more of a marketing thing or is it really important to have like good oxygen? Yeah, I mean.

Dr. Jason Sonners 01:04:47 
I mean, it's important to have good oxygen. You don't want bad oxygen, but, um, you know, is, is, is one person using green tank medical grade oxygen. Someone else is using a concentrator. Somebody else has a concentrator. That's 92%. Somebody has a concentrator that's 96%. You know, for the most part, I think the answer to your question is that's a marketing thing and, you know, I've seen people who say certain things, but can't prove what they're saying to be true anyway. Um, which is incredibly frustrating for someone like me. Um, but I would also say that like the amount of oxygen isn't always the most important piece, right? So pressure is doing something. Oxygen is doing something and time is doing something. And really, once you understand what you're working with, okay, this is the pressure ranges that my equipment goes to. This is the oxygen ranges that my equipment goes to. And this is the amount of time frequency duration that I have to play with. You can pretty much make a protocol based on whatever you've got. I think in most cases, um, but I, you know, I don't know that that's quite honestly, like the most important component. I don't think that it.

Andy Smith 01:06:00 
OK, cool. And we're seeing these four person chambers popping up in like sports clubs. You know, I actually use one place in London recently. Are they just as effective as I suppose it obviously depends on the manufacturer of the chamber and things. But do you think if you got a good quality four person versus a good quality one person chamber, are they just as effective or is there other constraints in terms of more pressure, more area to pressurize and all that sort of thing? Yeah, I mean, there's there.

Dr. Jason Sonners 01:06:30 
There are other constraints and size of compressor, and then there's what's your oxygen source and do you actually have enough oxygen flow to feed four people the same way you would have fed one? And I've seen a lot of equipment out there that falls short of really meeting the standards when they start doing that kind of thing. But if you had good compressors and you had powerful oxygen sources and you could essentially deliver the exact same program or protocol in either environment, the impact should be identical at that point. But I think for me, we have a number of chambers in our clinics that we run, but I've never put them... Those are called multi-place chambers. I've never used a multi-place chamber because it's rare for me to think that I have four people that need the same program.

Andy Smith 01:07:26 
All right, yeah.

Dr. Jason Sonners 01:07:26 
So like, if you have a four person chamber, everybody's going together to the same depth for the same period of time. Whereas I might have somebody who needs two atmospheres, I have somebody else that needs one and a half, I have somebody else that's doing 1.3, I have one person coming for 60 minutes, I have two people coming for 90 minutes. From a clinical standpoint, I tend to steer away from the multi-place for those kinds of reasons more than anything else. But if it were important to have multiple people going to the same destination for the same period of time, and you were able to create those environments, there shouldn't, and you're getting the right, you know, clean air, good air turnover, the right amount of oxygen for each person, therapeutically, it should be identical.

Andy Smith 01:08:14 
Yeah, OK. And I heard I saw a debate on Instagram with people saying that there's a cross-contamination risk as well with people in multi-chambers is, is, I mean, any, obviously, if you're in the same room as somebody, you know, there's a cross-contamination risk, but is it emphasised at all being, being in?

Dr. Jason Sonners 01:08:33 
Only because it's a small space typically and depending on how quickly the you know the chamber is like refreshing new air some chambers are called static chambers and they're not even refreshing the air on a regular basis that's a whole different potential for something like cross-contamination but yeah yeah I mean it's certainly a conversation

Andy Smith 01:08:52 
Yeah, okay, cool. Last question for you. Any common myths, myths or misconceptions with H-Bot that you kind of want to just dig deep on?

Dr. Jason Sonners 01:09:01 
There are myths and misconceptions and there are not myths and misconceptions.

Andy Smith 01:09:05 
Any that you hear most on a daily basis.

Dr. Jason Sonners 01:09:09 
Yeah, I mean, number so first of all, I, you know, I have a YouTube channel with about 600 videos on hyperbarics and hyperbarics mixed with other tools, devices, strategies, all kinds of things. And I think we have a few, we have a few playlists that are like myth specific for that reason. So if people are really wanting more detail on that, I think that's that'd be a great place to check out a lot of the myths and misconceptions. I think the more is better is one that just drives me bonkers. And I wish, you know, people just had a different view of the world. But that one's really incredibly important because there are so many people that are going to be doing a lot more higher pressure, more frequency and more duration than they need. And I think there's consequences to that which are unnecessary. Another one is, you know, how about I just breathe oxygen at the surface instead of using the chamber, which, you know, without pressure, the oxygen just doesn't work. So not in the way that it would with the pressure. And so that's a really important distinction to make. Another one is Ewatt, you know, Ewatt, I love Ewatt, which for your audience is exercise with oxygen therapy. And they've done a great job marketing themselves to be like a cheaper and faster hyperbaric. But it's not hyperbaric. I love Ewatt, I think it's incredibly powerful. But the way that it works and what it does and the reason that it works are completely different than the way hyperbaric works, what it does and why it gets the outcomes that it gets. So I think that's an incredibly important conversation that like these things are, a lot of these things are great, and are compared to one another, even though they're vastly different. And really, the comparison is apples to oranges, not apples to apples. I guess the last one would be that like, it's the cure all the magic bullet, you know, and it's just not it does help so many people with so many different issues. But not because it's the treatment or cure for anything strictly because oxygen is such a critical ingredient to the healing and recovery of our body. And for a variety of reasons, mostly toxicity and inflammation lead to low oxygen environments at the cellular level, which means that, you know, delivering high levels of oxygen for those people becomes such an amazing amplifying effect for healing and recovery. But again, not because the treatment is the treatment of that condition strictly because oxygen therapy at those pressures delivers in that ingredient at such high level that the body is now capable of healing in the way that it needed to in the first place.

Andy Smith 01:11:59 
Amazing thank you so much I mean thank you for your time today as well because I've learned so much on this and and you know I'm definitely going to go and start looking at buying a h4 navbo

Dr. Jason Sonners 01:12:11 
Yeah, well, secretly, once you once you said that, I was like, you know what, my goal today is to get you to

Andy Smith 01:12:18 
Yeah, I'll send you a picture in a couple of weeks and be in my... I want to see what you come up with, but, you know. 100%. Okay, cool. If anyone wants to find you, where's the best place to start? So, if they want some training, if they want to know a bit more about HBAR, or read into your book, where can they start?

Dr. Jason Sonners 01:12:38 
I've written four books, two of them on hyperbaric specifically, one's Oxygen Under Pressure, which is more of like a general understanding of hyperbaric and one, which I co-wrote with Dr. Dottori, which is the art and science of hyperbaric medicine, which is a little bit more of like a practitioner-based book, like almost, I want to say too much detail, but it's a lot of detail unless you really want that level. HBOTUSA.com is our main website. We don't sell anything there, it's strictly like educational for the average person to better understand hyperbarics. HBOTUSA is our YouTube channel also, like I said, there's 600 videos for people to learn there. And then the HBOTcourse.com is where we actually sell trainings. That's where our education training on business consulting and certification courses all live on the HBOTcourse.com.

Andy Smith 01:13:29 
Excellent. Thanks a lot. We'll leave some of those links under this podcast as well. But for our audience, thank you again for listening to today's episode. If you've enjoyed it, please subscribe, leave us a five-star review, and on any of your favorite streaming platforms, it really helps us bring people like Dr. Jason Sonners to share their knowledge with you. Like I say, you know, before this episode, my knowledge of H-Bolt was kind of there and now it's through the roof. So thanks again.

Dr. Jason Sonners 01:13:56 
Yeah, man, I love to love being here and, you know, happy to do it again in the future as we learn more and grow you and I, I'm sure we'll have new things to share with one another down the road.

Andy Smith 01:14:06 
Yeah, definitely. Bring your back for part two.

Dr. Jason Sonners 01:14:08 
Exactly.