Andy Smith 00:00 
Quick disclaimer before we begin, the PEMF podcast does not contain any medical advice and the content provided is for informational purposes only. If you have any health concerns, please visit a healthcare professional. Welcome back to another episode of the PEMF podcast. Today's guest really needs no introduction in the biohacking world, better known as Europe's leading biohacker, the health community guy and the founder of Health Optimization Summit. The voice on Instagram always showing us what's toxic to our health and ultimately what to avoid. Tim Gray, welcome to the podcast.

Tim Gray 00:33 
Thank you for having me.

Andy Smith 00:35 
No problem at all. For those listening that don't, or never heard of Tim Gray, who is Tim Gray? Can you give us a little bit of intro and what led you to be Europe's leading biohacker?

Tim Gray 00:47 
Yeah. I got ill back in 2012 and this is before influences were a thing, before there was all this functional medicine before the DNA tests were out or the microbiome tests are even a thing properly. And the doctors basically said they didn't know what was wrong with me. I had kidney stones, UTIs, prostate infections, crazy, crazy different things going on viral issues. My body was just like, felt like it was 40 and so many different ways. And the doctors just shoved their shoulders and said, we can't help you. And I was like, I've always been a, you know, pretty busy business guy, entrepreneur, had multiple seven figure companies. If I wanted to do something, I'd make it happen. And then when the doctor told me, can't find anything wrong, I was like, all right, enough's enough. Like this guy just doesn't have a clue. He was, you know, probably 65 years old, trained 40 years ago from medicine. It was 15 or 20 years before that, whatever. And, uh, just didn't really have a clue. So I just started studying and going on cure zone and you know, all the different four rooms and figuring out what was actually going on. And, um, I did that for a few years until I'd heard about bulletproof coffee, uh, which was about 2014, 15. And I heard that there was a thing such as a biohacker. I was like, actually, I'm one of those. And, um, so I've become a little bit more, uh, I guess linked into the community with it. Uh, back then it was bulletproof coffee and Dave Asprey stuff, which was great because that was the beginning of biohacking really. Um, yeah. And then when I went to us one day, uh, for the bio, uh, by hacking conference, I saw there was a huge community of loads of vibrant people all optimizing, doing all the crazy shit that I'd been doing for years. And as I, I want that in London. So I started the little meetup of 50 people, which now has grown to this year, 4,250 people in London. And we had 2,600 people in Austin, Texas back in April. So it's, yeah, it's kind of been an interesting journey, but just really optimizing. But I think the biggest thing in all of this is that when I was in my twenties and early thirties, I thought I was healthy because I had a traditional life. I'd eat the normal Pret a Manger sandwich for lunch, you know, from the sandwich van. I do all the stuff that everyone did thinking, you know, salad sandwich or a prep or, um, subway was healthy because it's salad and meat. Right. And yeah, I was absolutely screwed. And then when I got to a level of peak performance, I would say, and I still deal with some issues. I mean, this is one thing that my, I'm still trying to figure out for instance, but it's like, actually I was operating like 60, 65% for years, years and years. And then when I realized actually I can feel this much better and have this much spare energy, but then I spent the next 10 years optimizing to be, well, to always be in the best state I can be in.

Andy Smith 03:59 
Yeah. And anyone that listens to the podcasts, um, you know, regularly, they don't understand that she, that our story is quite similar. Um, same sort of experience with the NHS and, you know, but listening to one of your podcasts before you're saying you got to know receptionist on first time, but first name basis, all that sort of thing. I was the same, you know, I was going into the doctor's clinic when I was 25 burning candle at both ends, hit rock bottom, um, had an operation and it would just wouldn't heal was continuously getting infected.

And I kept getting the same story. I was there every day and it's, and the doctors looking at you thinking, why are you here again? And they're frustrated and they're angry that you're sitting in their office again. And they give you that answer. There's nothing wrong with you. The amount of times I heard, there's nothing wrong with you was so frustrating. You know, I'm thinking to myself, I don't want to be here. You know, I would rather be, I was jet set in, I was, you know, doing sales, all this sort of thing. And all of a sudden my health's in the pan, my head, my head space is in the pan and I'm at the doctor's clinic constantly. Why do you think they don't prescribe biohacking? Not so much biohacking, but why don't, why do they give you the answer? There's nothing you can do.

Tim Gray 05:18 
Well, if you think about it for a second, I don't think they have any bad intentions here. They don't. Emphasis on they. If you think about it, say you go through all your training, you come out the other end of doctor and you go in because you know, you're going to earn some good money and you're going to help some people. Right. Great. But what happens if every single Tom, Dick and Harry comes to your clinic and tells you, Hey, you should try this new therapy or you should try this new therapy or you should try this new therapy or this new therapy. What's the baseline? What, who sets the standard? And it's like you have to be open to things progressing, but also not open to things that might not work. And that's a very tough thing. This is why I think further education is so important for doctors, obviously. And why in the UK, they like doctors to still practice in the NHS, even if they work privately and clock up the hours, obviously, and further training. So I think most of the doctors are in the mindset to be able to do so, but I think they have a risk of losing their medical license if they start telling people to do stuff that isn't in the syllabus or in their medical training. However, where this changes is now with functional medicine, for instance, look at Jeffrey Bland or Mark Hyman or Rangan Chatterjee or these guys, their functional medicine doctors and so they're a doctor with additional training on top. Now, the funny thing is, is on quack zone or quack watch or whatever it's called, you know, and on social medias, you hear people call Mark Hyman and, you know, Rangan and Jeffrey a quack. They don't know medicine, but in fact, they've studied medicine and more. So these doctors that are saying they don't, you know, they're quacked, don't get it. And they're probably the closed minded ones. Whereas the other thing is, is when there's a financial incentive to improve your knowledge, people shift. For instance, I've noticed in the last year, there's a golden longevity gold rush. As soon as people know there's a gold rush on longevity, everyone starts jumping into the space because they're like, oh, I can make more money. And it's the same with a lot of biological dentists. For instance, OK, give you an example. My friend, Dr. Dom, biological dentist, runs the training for normal dentists to become biological dentists. He's very mission led. He wants to change the world. He wants everyone to not have to go through the crap that, you know, the last 50 years have done with mercury and things like that. There's a lot of people jumping on the biological dentistry without doing certifications, saying that they're biological dentists, not understanding biological dentistry because they know they can build more. Which is a money thing, not an integrity thing. So to answer your question, money drives innovation. And if someone has a medical license that can be revoked, meaning that they can't then pay their bills because they lose their medical license, they're going to keep quiet until there's something else. And that's what's happening with functional medicine. And you know, actually I'm giving a talk at the summit with Rangan Chatterjee, kind of in the mindset of what does medicine say? What does biohacking say? And then, you know, seeing where they match and where there's differences, which is going to be a really interesting talk, I think. So I think partly down to fear of losing their license, of talking about things that they can't prove are correct yet. And partly because the training syllabus is run or put together by the medical companies that want them to push pharmaceuticals, which is why you can never get prescribed sunlight grounding. Clean water, but no, have a med. You know, so that's what I think. And I don't think there's bad intentions anywhere to be honest. I think it's paying the bills and yeah.

Andy Smith 09:17 
And that's the risk is that there seems to be this kind of medical versus alternative biohacking, you know, and it's not that it's kind of coming together and making it, making it functional. Like you say,

Tim Gray 09:26 
I mean, I would say one thing here is that if natural medicine worked, we wouldn't have the problems we have. Yeah. Okay. If medicine, medicine worked, we wouldn't have the need for alternative medicines. So therefore they go hand in hand, right? It's like one doesn't work on its own. The other doesn't work on its own. And it shouldn't be us versus them. It should be, Hey, what do we use here appropriately? However, when you think about it, modern medicine doesn't cure any diseases. It manages symptoms.

Andy Smith 09:57 
Mm-hmm.

Tim Gray 09:58 
natural care typically cures things. So they go hand in hand.

The only thing is, is, and I remember seeing a management consultant's firm slide deck from a talk that they gave saying, um, do healthy patients equal clients.

Andy Smith 10:22 
Uh-huh.

Tim Gray 10:23 
If you just think about that for a second, it kind of tells you everything you need to know.

Andy Smith 10:27 
Yeah. It's making it, making the financial incentive maybe is the root, but by hacking and alternative help and that sort of thing, it does get a bit of bad press when it comes to looking like WooWoo, you just mentioned about Mark Hyman and you know, people thinking he's quack. How do we change that narrative? You know, we had a conversation with Professor Green on this podcast, UK rapper, and he's trying to make tree hugging call, you know, because tree hugging used to be seen, still is seen as kind of, you know, the hippie spool, but actually what we're doing when we're, we're hugging trees, we're grounding and you know, it's, it's, there's actually evidence that something is happening there now. So how can we make tree hugging call Tim?

Tim Gray 11:13 
He's such a, such a character. Good dude. Um, if you want to make it sound hippie and the people, professionals not listen, you call it tree hugging. I think the way that I like to approach it is understanding what the body needs to operate correctly. Like, and Gary Brecka talks about this very well as well. What's the body have a deficiency in, or what does the body have a toxicity in? That's it. You figure out what needs to come out and you figure out what needs to go in. And when you look on a cellular level, it's pretty much this grounding is to fill a deficiency of electrons, which rebalances the electrical system of the body. And there's actually 25 studies, including peer reviewed studies on grounding now. So if you say something like that to a medical professional, they listen. Whereas if you say, are you going to try to hug a tree because, uh, cause it's good for you. You know, there's a, there's a level of, uh, so I think you can appeal to, uh, multiple different types of people. However, I think the people, what you call it tree hugging to, for instance, that, you know, not the professional, some of the professionals, I would say probably the hippies or more hippie style, they're already doing it because they know they feel good for it. Or the Yogi's doing yoga in the park without the mats because they know that they feel good for some reason. Yeah.

Andy Smith 12:38 
And by hacking falls into that space a little bit. You know, when people mentioned by hacking, again, it kind of gets a bit wubu response. Would we say that the, we're trying to change a narrative on that now. Is it, should we be calling it more health optimization? Like, I know you like to, to refer to it or functional medicine. Is that a better way to coin it?

Tim Gray 13:00 
Functional medicine still has medicine in the title. It's just functional. I like integrative medicine. I like this as a label, actually more than functional integrative as in like completely integral and integral. Um, I don't think biohacking is classed as woo so much. I think there's been, there's a lot of snake oil salesmen in it. And there's certain biohackers that talk about or promote just about anything under the sun, whether they use it or not. And there's been a lot of pushback for that. And I think it gives it a bad name. I am Tim biohacker, obviously is a label because I'm into biohacking, which is a systems thinking approach to optimizing your health. You know, biohacking can also be a chip implant. Or whatever, but I think when you have the goal of health optimization in mind, well, it's the goal in the name, for instance, back in 2018, I did a survey on Oxford street, I've said this so many times, it's actually quite hilarious. I don't know whether anyone's heard it before when I say it, but, and we surveyed people on Oxford street and asked them if they wanted to biohack themselves, less than one 10th of a percent of people knew what it meant. When we said, do you want to optimize your health? 94% of people said, yes, in some form, 5% of people said, I loved one. 1% of people were just busy London. People in their lunch break push you out of the way and usual stuff. So that showed me that there was a 99% need versus a less than a 10th of percent of understanding health optimization. Can't be classed as woo woo. It can't be because it's, it's a thing. And that's so when I created the summit, in fact, it was strategic because I wanted to do what it said on the tin as we have in, in the UK as a saying. Um, so I, I liked the term health optimization and I'm quite emotionally attached to it for obvious reasons. But my background is marketing and psychology and, and that's really, you know, for 20 years of my life in direct to consumer ethical marketing using psychology is in terms of clear communication and writing value propositions and creating brand names was, it was my bread and butter for many years. So when I did the health optimization summit, it's like, you never need to go. What's that about then? Never want to buy ever. Whereas if you say a biohacking conference, what do they say? Oh, what's that about?

Andy Smith 15:25 
Yeah. No, no, no, that makes sense. A lot of your content is focused around guts at gut health. So I wanted to kind of drill into that and find out why that is. Is that a personal reason for that? Or is it just that you feel that that is where the center of the issues begin in the body?

Tim Gray 15:45 
I mean, I would say about 10 to 15% of my content is probably on gut health to be precise. For me, it was a big, important topic. It's actually something still ongoing for me that I work on. Um, so, but I think also people stick so much stuff in their gobs. In fact, I saw a reel the other day of a TV show where a woman who was obese was asked to put her food in a clear plastic tube instead of in her mouth and she was fasting or whatever, and you could see all of the food going into this tube and not in the glass of milk, okay, I'd normally have a glass of milk now and you put it in and you just see how much stuff she put through her body on a daily basis, goes into the cup and a lot of it, it can't process because it's unnatural stuff, processed foods, blah, blah, blah. And yet we think once he's in our mouth, I say, it's fine. He's like, oh yeah, just stick it in. It'd be fine. So there's one thing that is the center of gut, gut, which determines how many nutrients we get into our bodies. You know, obviously the mouth is the entrance to the gut actually. So the health starts in your mouth and the oral microbiome you have helps determine so many things for your overall health, including, you know, your nitric oxide production and you know, which then is blood flow all ties in together. So I think if you think about optimizing your gut, caring about your gut more and you have the right microbiome balance, then I think a lot of the things fix. Also, you only have to walk down the street in any city other than Poland, strangely, because they didn't really seem to have this as a problem. Everyone has a belly. Nearly everyone has a belly. And I think what was it? Chris Williamson said the other day on a podcast, I think it's more rare to see someone that can bench press 300 kilos than it is to see. Then it is to, for someone worth 10 million. Or something crazy like that. And it's like, and the amount of, so for instance, and it, and also I think it's Sadia Khan or one of the dating coaches said the other week as well. If you're looking for a guy that's in the top 1%, that's much more likely than finding a guy with a six pack. So finding a guy with a six pack and is worth 10 million ladies, you're dreaming. Like literally there's, there's nothing. My point is, is that you just have to look at people's guts everywhere you go to see that they're either bloated or extra belly fat. And most people are actually bloated.

So I think it's important that we understand that the gut health needs to be optimal. And I think everyone should really do a stool test just to see, you know, what their microbiome is like. It wouldn't be a problem if we weren't drinking tap water, which is chlorinated or swimming in chlorinated swimming pools or having antibiotics when we get an infection or, you know, one of so many different things that actually kills our microbiome off. And yet it's completely fundamental for our health. So that's why I angle a lot of the content around that. There was actually, I did a piece recently, we've got a bit of pushback strangely, but it's around IM8. I don't know if you know IM8, the David Beckham brand. They sent me this stuff like eight months ago before it came out and said, we want your opinion on it. And I was like straight away. I was like, no, I'm not going to like, I liked David Beckham as a character, but I don't know if he knows much about health. But no, they came back and said, look, we really want you to dig into it. But I did. And I said, okay, tell me about this, this, this, this. And they came back and it was such a good medical board or the panel for actually creating the product. I was very impressed. So I did some content on it. Like I think it was about 10 days ago that was about how it helps fix gut health because of the methylated vitamins in it and the nutrients and the aminos. And people were like, oh, this can't help fix your gut. It's like, well, actually, it's pretty good. I think, you know, you need to do it long term. But then you've got on top of that, like gut health isn't just about your microbiome or fixing the gut lining with two of those things. It's also about liver, liver health. And, you know, that's one area I think that everyone should optimize. You know, you see women with acne, acne down on their faces here, or hormone imbalances or bloated and they can't fit in the dress properly or their cycle is off. It's nearly always gut and liver. And the thing is, is the more stress the gut gets from antibiotics or actually if you're eating sushi a lot, which are riddled with parasites, like literally really bad, really bad.

Andy Smith 20:28 
I've heard you say that before.

Tim Gray 20:29 
We evolved with fire for a reason, you know, and that's an ancient thing that we still have, which is ridiculous. Point is, is parasites and poor gut balance means the liver has to process all of that, which means the liver gets stressed, which means you get body odor, which means you get fat, which means you get fatigue, all of these things. And then your cycle goes off if you're a woman because the liver is struggling because the gut's not right. So how do you intervene? So I would say it's a fundamental part of the overall unit of the body.

Andy Smith 21:01 
Same thing with me, you know, when I was going to the doctor's office, continuously just given new antibiotics, not once in a six month period was I ever mentioned to change my diet or is a little list of some healthy things that helps with gut microbiome. What do you think that was? That was my question to you.

Tim Gray 21:18 
Why do you think that is?

Andy Smith 21:23 
I mean, this is the issue. It's completely overlooked in the NHS. And again, is it down to red tape? Is it down to, well, maybe it's because they can't make money from it.

Tim Gray 21:36 
They just don't. They're just not taught. They're just not taught. But I think that's where functional medicine training is coming in quite well. And there's a lot of nutritionists out there, which, you know, when someone says I'm a nutritionist or whatever, I kind of, most of the time I roll my eyes because when I look at their content, they're saying, ah, don't worry, you can eat whatever you want. Just half the calories. I'm a nutritionist. I know what I'm talking about. What credentials have you got, Tim? It's like, well, actually, 14 years of experience actually of seeing what actually works. How long was your nutritional training course? How many weekends was that? Two or three? The point is, is, you know, qualifications are a heuristic for someone knowing what they're doing. The problem is the world's become so stupid that they go, well, what are your qualifications? Well, actually, no, I have all the experience. I don't have the qualifications, but it was a heuristic.

And I know when some, for instance, a billionaire friend's health goes wrong. Who do they pick up the phone to? Not their doctor. Not the one with the qualifications. Who fixes it? Who couldn't fix it? You know, it's pretty indicative of the way, and I'm not saying I shouldn't have qualifications. No, not at all.  But I think it's the keen mind of what works. And so I think doctors aren't in the mindset of what works. They're like, how can we get them out quick enough? How can we give them the right drug so we can fill the amount of prescriptions on whatever it is?

Andy Smith 22:53 
Yeah, and the gut brain axis is something I've seen on your content. linked to gut health, mental health, the link there, how does that work and do you think that if people change a diet, it's going to have a direct impact on their mental health?

Tim Gray 23:08 
I love that you're asking me a question that you know the answer to. I read a book called Psychobiotics quite a few years ago now, which is fantastic and, you know, so I read a lot on the subject and tested things myself. For instance, a lot of people that get anxiety have it after certain foods. One of which can be monosodium glutamate. I don't know why I said that funny. Monosodium glutamate. Why, for instance, monosodium glutamate. We have glutamate receptors. Okay. I think it's about 94% of our neurotransmitters are actually glutamate based. And then we've got serotonin, which is like 5% of our happy. Okay. So there's a whole load of neurotransmitters. The majority is based around glutamate, I believe. Monosodium glutamate. So if you just think about that for a second, what are they giving you? They're giving you basically a neurotransmitter in your food, which tricks our senses into thinking that something tastes good when it doesn't. Just think about it. So, and a lot of people, for instance, with bipolar disease or anxiety attacks or whatever it may be, have a neurotransmitter imbalance. Where do neurotransmitters come from

Andy Smith 24:29 
In their food?

Tim Gray 24:32 
Exactly so if your, if your microbiome is off balance, say, for instance, you could, let's just say for a second, you have 10 different bacteria strains in your gut, just 10 and those 10 different strains do 10 different things or break down 10 different things in the food and take, extract certain nutrients from them. What happens if it extracts because you're missing seven, it's only extracting the nutrients for three and you're only getting partial neurotransmitters. And then you eat another food later on, which helps another part of your microbiome and it feels another one. You're going to be up and down. Whereas when it's well balanced, you don't have that issue so much. And I think like, for instance, example, ex-girlfriend of mine was vegan, bless her. And she was always flat. She was always not vibrant, happy, but not vibrant. And the one day I gave her some aminos, branched Jane and essential aminos together. She came alive and neurotransmitters were singing. I was like, wow, she's a completely different human. I mean, in terms of vibe and energy, why? Because her plant-based diet for her, I'm not saying it doesn't work for everyone, wasn't giving her the nutrients she needed for her neurotransmitters to work as they should do. So yeah, the gut brain access that we're one body, we're one thing, you know, what we put in our mouth ends up in our gut. What goes in our gut ends up how we feel and you'll know it. If you have a Burger King or McDonald's or whatever it may be, you know it half an hour to an hour later, you just feel groggy and horrible.

Andy Smith 26:09 
Not just the food regret, is it? It's whatever.

Tim Gray 26:11 
But the taste is bloody fantastic, right? And we're that stupid. If you put that in front of a dog, it will not eat it. In fact, you put most foods in front of a dog and if it doesn't think it needs it, it won't eat it. Their intuition is strong, but we're so smart were stupid.

Andy Smith 26:28 
Couple of tips. Gut improvement. Have you got any? So talking about what we've just been talking about, do you have a couple of simple hacks you can give the audience to improve their gut health?

Tim Gray 26:38 
The number one thing I would recommend to fix your gut would be Swedish digestive bitters. So very quickly is the food that we eat prepares our body to prepare the digestive juices to break down our food. So this is why preparing food has always been traditional. Like for instance, preparing your food, your senses are getting ready to it. You're smelling it. You're touching it. Whereas now we just get a plate put in front of us and say eat it. Our body's not prepared, which is why some people sit there and bless their food. My friend Akira does this over every meal. So Swedish digestive bitters basically are very bitter drops that you put in your mouth and it tells your digestive system you've got some food here to digest coming up. So it prepares your liver and your gallbladder to digest properly. Now, why is this important? From our liver, we produce bile, it goes into our gallbladder, which stores it up. And then when we eat something with fatty food in it, the gallbladder goes like this, squeezes out bile, which is a bit like washing up liquid. Okay. It makes your poop slippery and makes it slide through and what makes it brown and darker. So for instance, if you're on the yellow side and more looser, then you're not having enough bile often. And if you have higher body odor, often lower bile or stressed liver as a result. So the bitters help up regulate bile production, bile salts. If you're dehydrated, also your liver will not be producing enough bile salts. So you can supplement with ox bile capsules, which are amazing. So if you're ever on the constipated side, best thing you can ever do, best thing, if you're on the looser side, you might be a little bit explosive. So I'd probably go very carefully because it's go sideways. But digestive bitters is just a very gentle way of waking the liver up to say, hey, you got to start working here. I find that's number one hack of all. And in fact, I do it three, four, five times a day. Another thing I'd recommend is depending on your, you know, how good your food is. Mass enzymes from body bio-optimizers, which are digestive enzymes you take with your food that help break down. And in fact, I think it was Wade Lighthart, the founder, that said that you can actually get up to five, I think four or five times as much protein from the same food by taking the enzymes with it. And in fact, I tested this one. So I had a surgery three, four years ago, and they cut out a vein and I had a metal implant in it, basically. And I said to Mark, can I keep the coil? They said no, because you wouldn't be able to get the vein off of it. So anyway, I kept it in the thing, took it home, put some bi-optimizers, digestive enzymes in it, left them overnight and it dissolved all of the vein off of the coil. And then I got the perfectly clean coil. The point is I see that they work firsthand and I've dosed it up to like 150 capsules a day to test to see how good it works. It works very well. So digestive bitters and digestive enzymes. If, and I mentioned IM8 earlier on, and this isn't a plug, they're not paying me to say this, but I think if you are working on your gut and leaky gut, something like IMA that has the right nutrients in there to help repair your gut is a great move. It also tastes good and gets you the activated vitamins and minerals you need in the morning to help you wake you up. One other thing I'd probably recommend would be something like copper peptides or BPC 1 5 7 or TB 500, which are, you know, the, Level Up Health, which is L-V-L-U-P Health, they do capsules so you don't have to inject yourself and look like a crazy druggie, which obviously goes in via the gut, which they have a Wolverine stack these days, which helps you heal very quickly. And obviously I've used them on and off for a long time after my tonsil surgery, after various surgeries, and that helps repair leaky gut very, very, very well. So yeah, those would be my three Tim's top tips for the gut.

Andy Smith 30:44 
And I like the fact that you mentioned some of these brands, but a lot of them you don't affiliate for or benefit from in any way. So it kind of does come across a lot more genuine. I know you've opened packages from people that have sent you tech as well that you've kind of opened and gone, no, you know, not going to put that on my story. So no, it's good. It's good to see some kind of genuine people still in this, in this industry.

Tim Gray 31:05 
It's a tough balance because, you know, it costs a lot of money to run an account of this size, you know, it costs a lot of money to run an account. You know, you've got so many different people on the team, editors, videographers, you know, people to help me with the science and backing and all this stuff. And I can understand how influencers do can sell their soul. However, we've got such a strict rule at the health optimization summit is every single product, every single brand gets approved by me. And you know this firsthand.

Andy Smith 31:33 
Yeah.

Tim Gray 31:34 
Um, and if I don't, if I wouldn't let my mom have it or me have it, it's not going to make it to the floor. And I wouldn't promote it on my Instagram either. And the reality is I do have some sponsorships and partnerships I do these days, you know, where I have like a three, six or 12 month plan to promote some of the brands, but it's always the angle that I want. And if for instance, one brand came to me the other week and said, we want you to say that our product does this, I don't believe it does. And it didn't do that for me. So I'm not going to talk about it. Sorry. Um, so yeah, it is a tough balance, but yeah, I'd like to think I got it right. And it works for the long term because people trust me when I do say stuff. However, I shared out a story yesterday, which I know you saw because you, you did a story today about it as well, was the chem trails.

Andy Smith 32:17 
Oh yeah.

Tim Gray 32:17 
And I had so many hate messages saying, oh, you've lost it now. You're effing nutter and all this. Right. And then I was

Andy Smith 32:24 
That was weird though, wasn't it? I mean, I've, I've not commented with chem trails before, but I actually sent you the picture that I took, which is, you know, this really strange cloud that I actually got the girls, my daughters to come out and have a look at it. Sky was pink. It was really cool, but it was like this cloud was coming out from London. It was really strange. And so I took a picture of it. And then I started seeing your comment in about all these different things happening and altering the weather and all that sort of thing. So I was starting to.

Tim Gray 32:52 
I started to get hate mail, so I was like, just see the next story. One woman said, yeah, absolute effing nut job, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm unfollowing. And I, and, and I just replied said, first of all, see the next story, because that's actually the official thing, but also how you treat others is how your inner world is. So I hope you, I hope you're okay. Best wishes, Tim. And then she blocked me, but, but yeah, I got a lot of hate for that yesterday. A lot. It must've been 60, 70 messages at least. So I had a lot more people saying, oh, why are people so blind? Why don't they realize that this is true?

Andy Smith 33:29 
How do you deal with that in terms of, you know, you've got a lot of followers online, so people send you hate messages like you did yesterday. What's your response to it? Is it ignore? Is it angry? Is it?

Tim Gray 33:41 
I get about 300 to 350 million views a year right now. Like it's pretty, it's a lot of reach when I first started. And I guess I was insecure and I didn't know who I was. So, so much. If someone said something bad to me, I would be narkey back. Whatever. Now I lead with love. If, if, for instance, if you are rude to me, the common human thing to do is to be rude back, but you've determined how I behave. Right. However you behave is however you behave, however I behave is how I choose to behave. I'm not going to get sucked into that. So I used to, when I was, I was insecure, more insecure. And you know, when you get a hundred people a day saying that you're a crackpot or crazy or whatever, when you're just trying to help the world actually be healthier and not go through the stuff you went through is, is actually quite soul destroying. But you get to the point, I think where I've worked on myself so much. I know who I am. I'm like, like, I know who I am. 100%. I know I'm doing good for the world. I'm trying to leave it in a better place than I found it, which most people don't actually have the mindset to do. And I believe we all have that responsibility. And I don't get sucked into it. One thing that really changed my life recently, was that during my conference in Austin, it was actually a life-changing moment for me. During my conference in Austin, a certain competitor of ours sent their sales team to our event to pitch our vendors. Okay. No names mentioned. And my team rang me and said, such and such is here pitching to our vendors. What should we do? Should we kick them out? And I said, just wait one minute. I'm going to think about this. Cause I didn't want to react. And I said to my friend Dom who was just happened to be with at the time. And he gave me this nugget, which never ever leave me in my whole life. He goes, the other day I had a courier come to the house and Max, my 10 year old son came running up and said, daddy, daddy, DHL has been rude to mommy. Come and tell him. And he was like, okay, come on. This is how we deal with it. So he walked up, said, hi, what's up? He said, Oh, I've got a package for you signed for it. Okay, cool. Have a good day. Max said, but you didn't tell him. It's like, what would Mofaser do? Like what, how would a King behave? He wouldn't react. It's a little, it's a little guy delivering a package, give him a break. He might've had a horrible day. Don't have to react. He's like, that's the lesson. And he said to me, what would Mofaser do? So anyway, in that moment, I was like, Mofaser. Who the hell's that? And he goes, it's the Lion King. It's King, but okay. Interesting. How would a King behave? And when you have a tribe of 4,000 people, two sides of the, both sides of the world, it kind of become a truck kind of become a tribe leader. I kind of cringe saying that, but the reality of it is there's a lot of people. I have a responsibility to act like a King, not like a Jester. And when someone is rude to me, I either don't need to react or I need to lead with love. Take that one step further before I leave this thought, because I don't want to hijack this podcast, but I think mindset is a massive piece in this whole thing. It's like, if you think about a chessboard, the King moves one piece at a time. He can't react in any way, shape or form by definition. The Queen, however, within his kingdom can go from edge to edge to edge to edge, react completely within his kingdom. And he builds the kingdom to protect her. And together they have every piece that works for their advantage. If someone is rude to him, do you think that he reacts? No. And this is an ancient game. It's very metaphorical. So when someone hates on me now, I just lead with love. And I tried to show them, I tried to show them how they could have been better without telling them to be better, such as yesterday. And for me, it's a big, big shift. And I think the final point on this is, I broke up with a girl however many years ago, and she sent me this really horrible message. And I went to write back and I showed it to my brother and said to him, what do you think? He goes, he didn't say, why do you care what she thinks about you? He said, why do you care that she doesn't know who you are?  Right. That was another one of those things. It's just like that hit me right here. It's like, yeah, you're right. She doesn't know who I am. I'm not even gonna bother. And that's the thing. These haters, these people that are in the medical world that say that I'm full of crap, whatever, they don't know who I am. I do. So it doesn't affect me. And I would say that that was a massive shift for me, especially this year, really big shift.

Andy Smith 38:28 
Yeah.

Tim Gray 38:28 
I felt like that, that question really deserved a deep answer.

Andy Smith 38:32 
And just a little hack for myself, you know, I've been the same. I've reacted badly in the past. And you think, you know, to comments or to emails, I'm, I'm a, I'm a hack for an email because it will come in and it will set the trigger and then you and then your little keyboard warrior back. I'll give myself an hour now. My rule is an hour. It doesn't matter how urgent the post is or whatever, or the email, give yourself an hour. And it gives you that thinking time to reply and to, to come back and to calm down and to exactly do what you just want.

Tim Gray 39:01 
That's one step towards it. Yeah. But the question is, why would you need to react? And you're, you're pausing. It's great because it's an interrupt. It's great. But if you think, how would, how would a king behave? And I hate saying it's a bit cringy, but at the same time, it's like I realized I always looked for other mentors my whole life because my father wasn't really a role model. I always sought out role models. And I met Dom who's a very good friend of mine. He's a super alpha, but in a good way and a great father and an amazing surgeon and all these things. And I loved it. But now I have the king thing. How would a king behave? Because, you know, let's be honest, it's ultimate non-reactiveness. Like the kingdom always comes first. And it's Joffrey, Joffrey versus John Stone. It's like the one that didn't really want to be the king versus the evil ruler that wants to make everyone do what he wants them to do. One comes from weakness and one comes from strength.

Andy Smith 39:50 
No, it's good. Great answer. I want to talk about biohacking. I want to, I want to drill into some biohacking techniques and I want to start by doing a bit of a quick fire.

Tim Gray 40:00 
Yep.

Andy Smith 40:00 
So One to 10, one being bad, 10 being good. I want to read these out and I want you to just score them for me. methylene blue

Tim Gray 40:10 
Eight.

Andy Smith 40:11 
Ice baths.

Tim Gray 40:12 
For me, one.

Andy Smith 40:13 
Coffee enemas.

Tim Gray 40:14 
Yeah, eight.

Andy Smith 40:16 
We're drilling into some of these afters, don't worry. Grounding.

Tim Gray 40:18 
Ten.

Andy Smith 40:20 
Controlled hypoxia during breath work.

Tim Gray 40:22 
Nine.

Andy Smith 40:23 
Hydrogen-infused water.

Tim Gray 40:24 
Eight and a half.

Andy Smith 40:25 
H-bot. Hyperbaric oxygen chamber for anyone who hasn't.

Tim Gray 40:29 
Seven and a half. And I want you to drill into why.

Andy Smith 40:32 
I've got that, don't worry. Alcohol?

Tim Gray 40:36 
Contextually, 10 or one. Depends. Let's go with the two and I'm happy to drill into that as well.

Andy Smith 40:49 
PEMF

Tim Gray 40:50 
Minus 17. I would say it's probably a seven.

Andy Smith 40:58 
Cool we'll talk about, don't worry. Meditation.

Tim Gray 41:01 
Ten.

Andy Smith 41:01 
Microdosing psychedelics.

Tim Gray 41:06 
Microdosing zero.

Andy Smith 41:08 
Ozempic

Tim Gray 41:09 
Minus 2,050 kilos. Yeah, just no, just zero.

Andy Smith 41:14 
No, no, I agree. So we'll talk about a few of those. We mentioned coffee enemas. I know Kris Gethin is quite a vocal and visual on his stories at times doing his coffee enemas.  Not specifically about them, but probably what's your most unusual biohack that you think you've done? If it's not a coffee enemas.

Tim Gray 41:40 
No, it's not. It's probably the most unusual, but probably one of the best. I went to Florida, to Sarasota, to Dr. John Lawrence's clinic because I'd had prostatitis for many years and the doctors told me I couldn't fix it. He has a Proster blue procedure in his longevity clinic, which is a needle goes into your prostate via your bladder while you're awake and you have antibiotics, methylene blue, ozone, go injected directly into the prostate. And he said to me, you know, what painkillers do you want? And Ben Greenfield, when he did it, had laughing gas and, you know, it's fine. I was like, I'm a fan of ketamine. Let's do some ketamine. Please they gave me IV ketamine. I left the planet, saw the divine, really met with God. I was that high and off the planet. Um, and I was like, and then I could hear a beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. And I was like, Oh my goodness. I've gone too far this time. I'm, I'm on the resuscitation table. I've gone too far. I've done it. Tim, like you've done some crazy stuff, but this is high risk, high reward. And then I was like, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. And then I opened my eyes and it was like, no, it was just a nurse with the clipboard. I was just high on ketamine.

But that was quite an experience. But the thing is that I had it done twice and it cured the prostatitis and, and doc, and, and I'd had it for probably eight years or so. The doctors just said, there's no way. And in fact, I told my urologist about it. I was like, really, what is this? Cause I've got it. And I wouldn't mind trying that too. So, you know, they are open when it's open.

Andy Smith 43:27 
The ketamine or the procedure?

Tim Gray 43:27 
Yeah I avoid ketamine these days.

Andy Smith 43:30 
Methylene blue we mentioned and my first experience with methylene blue was actually in Austin at the biohack summit. I think one of the vendors had it. And, um, one thing I wasn't expecting was that I was going to be peeing blue for the next three days. Um, so that's a bit of a by-product that comes from methylene blue. And I believe it's dye originally originally was dye for synthetic dyes.

Tim Gray 43:55 
Yeah no, it was one of the first pharmaceuticals ever invented. Okay. Basically when, when pharmaceuticals were invented to actually do stuff, not just to change the formulas so that they could patent it, you know, like original stuff, um, antifungal, antibacterial. Um, when you have carbon monoxide poisoning and you get into accident emergency, every emergency care has methylene blue because it deals with carbon monoxide poisoning, amazingly. It's, um, they bypasses a whole, bypasses a whole load of processes and helps you use oxygen more efficiently. So I, I find that I can swim almost twice as far underwater when I have had methylene blue beforehand. Um, however, and, and yes, it was a dye or it is also also used as a dye. Wasn't his original thing. Um, it's, if you put it into a fish tank, see what it does to the mold, just see how amazing it is. So, you know, it donates an electron to the electron transport chain. Very detailed, you know, for energy production, it, it supports energy production and ATP amazingly, but it bypasses a whole load of processes. There's some controversy around it where Paul Saladino says it's bullshit, you know, and you shouldn't need it and no one needs it, but in fact, I find it to be very good, even as a, I would say pretty well optimized human is pretty good stuff on the flight. When you're in a low oxygen environment for 10 hours, amazing, like major hack cause you'll increase your oxygen usage significantly in a lower environment. Or if you're an underwater swimmer, so I love methylene blue. However, I do find that the better thing on a daily basis throughout the day is hydrogen water, similar ish. There's a lot of overlap between what they both do, right? Hydrogen water. However, spring water was more hydrogen rich, much more hydrogen rich and much more alive and much more mineralized and everything says tap water, which is dead. And you can test hydrogen water with a redox potential meter. ORP. And it will show you how high in antioxidants hydrogen water is and how bad water is that tap water and bottle water is in terms of a pro-oxidant. And you can measure it. I like hydrogen water throughout the day. I've got it built into my tap at home. So I just drink it all the time or carry a bottle around. So I would say anyone that wants to have a go with methylene blue. Great. It's good. It gives you a blue tongue and makes you stand out as a biohacker. However, hydrogen water is probably the win. And in fact, Gary Brecka sells a brand H2 tab.

Andy Smith 46:31 
Yeah. So I've actually just put a tab in my water before this.

Tim Gray 46:34 
Thanks for sharing, man.

Andy Smith 46:36 
Literally had one stick left so popped it in there before you saw.

Tim Gray 46:39 
Yeah. He brought out a brand H2 tab, which is fantastic as well. And rightly so. It's one of those, it's one of those things that people are like, well, you didn't usually have hydrogen that high in water. Yeah, I know you did actually stream water is actually much higher, much more antioxidant and better for you, which means that your cells take up the water better, so you are actually hydrating better by having hydrogen water, hydrogen enriched water.

Andy Smith 47:04 
And do you think there's a best way to administer hydrogen water in terms of like, you said you got it tapped, plumped in. Is it the tablets that I've put in my water before we came here? Is it, that's a convenience thing, but is it better doing it one way or the other?

Tim Gray 47:18 
No, not really. I mean, I think you can release, um, you can release the hydrogen in the water by, they have metal plates. I think it's titanium metal plates in the, in the bottle, um, or they use elemental magnesium in the capsule, in the tablet. So I don't think there's much of a problem, much of a difference between the two. I think the magnesium one might be a little bit on the plus side because we all are a bit deficient in magnesium. So I think it's actually good like that, but it's more about a convenience thing on your preference.  I like carrying around a funky bottle from echo, echo water, whenever the brand. Yeah. Um, I think that it really good and everyone, including airport security always stops me and asks me what this bottle is with a battery on the bottom.

Andy Smith 48:02 
H-Bot. We mentioned that in the, in the scoring. And, um, I mentioned H-Bot on this a few times before. I'm a big fan of H-Bot. Um, you actually gave it a 7.5, which I thought was a little bit lower than I was expecting to come from you. And I used it in 2019 as part of your healing journey.

Tim Gray 48:19 
I had a hyperbaric clinic from 2015 through 2019, roughly. Um, no, it's a seven and a half because you should be breathing properly.

Andy Smith 48:28 
Okay.

Tim Gray 48:28 
If you notice where you said about the hypoxic and your breathing, I said nine. I think it was, is it nine? I said, yeah. But hyperbolic oxygen therapy, I said seven and a half. Why would that be? Because I'd much rather someone breathe properly and learn to deal with carbon dioxide better and able to hold their breath better. And therefore more oxygenated because it actually, I learned this from Patrick McGowan, who runs beautiful methods, um, oxygen advantage. And he takes his practitioners. He's the science-based approach to breath work, breathe in, breathe out, you know, and all this funky stuff that's really popular, it's the scientific approach to oxygenation. And when you understand how oxygen and carbon dioxide work in tandem. people are over breathing and under oxygenated. So I'll give you a quick, I'll tell you why this is so important, okay? If you can hold your breath and deal with the carbon dioxide as the carbon dioxide increases in your blood, it forces oxygen into the cell, ironically, right? So if you can't hold your breath and you're breathing lots of air, you're not dealing with the carbon dioxide because you can't hold your breath properly, which means you're not oxygenated as much, which is why when you breathe slower and lower, opposed to through your mouth, which is measured via your sinuses, you're increasing nitric oxide production and you're breathing more measured, meaning you're more oxygenated by breathing less because you are dealing with your carbon dioxide better, okay? Breath work and hypoxic training are amazing for this. And I did my VO2 max and I was at a 21 pro athlete level because I had been doing breathing through my nose and not my mouth for two years, full pelt, 15 minutes. And I was just like, it was like the matrix. I was like, I couldn't even run for 30 seconds without breathing through my mouth two years before. Hyperbaric is fantastic to fill a deficiency. You know, like vitamin C, you can eat foods that are rich in vitamin C or you can take a tablet, you know, which one comes first, which one's more important, contextually. I would say ongoing basis of always breathing properly will get you far further than using hyperbaric. However, it's great if you've got a diabetic foot wound, for instance, or if you're chronically fatigued and you just need support. However, everyone that's prescribing hyperbaric should be telling them to learn to breathe properly beforehand, otherwise they wouldn't be in that problem. And that's why it was a seven and a half.

Andy Smith 50:57 
So someone's looking at spending 100,000 pounds on a hyperbaric chamber and they don't do breath work. That's the starter. Is that what you're saying?

Tim Gray 51:06 
Humans are so smart, we're stupid. The thing is, I like hyperbaric chamber as a bonus, but the thing is you can't really over oxygenate the body. If you're breathing properly, you don't really need to. However, we do have busy lifestyles. You know, it's like saying, well, you know, you don't need filtered tap water. I choose to live in London. It could be, well, actually I run a busy life and I sit at a desk all day and I don't actually practice breath work. Okay, get a hyperbaric is a good shortcut, but really that's not the longevity approach. So, yeah, I mean, fundamentals of health. As Dr. Ted Akikosa says, eat well, sleep well, hydrate well, sun well, ground well, move well, love well, fuck well, you know, these are all the basic fundamentals that we should nail before using any of these technologies and stuff. And I think it's the same for PEMF. I love PEMF. If you need it, it fills a deficiency, but if you're not getting your shoes off and standing in the grass, then you're kind of missing the point.

Andy Smith 52:03 
Yeah, and it's a good point we'll come to. I want to take a deep dive into the health hospitalization summit in a minute because that's something that I really want to talk about. But let's talk about the PEMF. When was your first experience of PEMF therapy? And I know you've experienced like the lower intensities. You've had a CELLER8 home, you use it Remedi clinic. What about higher intensity stuff? So when was your first experience of PEMF therapy?

Tim Gray 52:29 
First experience of PEMF was at the Bulletproof Labs in Santa Monica back in 2016 or 17, which is interesting because it was very high intensity. And I think that gives it the fun factor because you feel a stimulus and therefore you think it's working more. So, you know, placebo maybe adds to the benefit, whatever. And I actually, I liked the idea that it could make my muscles jump, but that doesn't mean that it works more. And then the friend of mine, Joe Cohen, Mr. Biohacker on Instagram, who runs self decode, he introduced me, I think it's Bob Dennis, who was the guy that invented PEMF originally. And I got on a call with him and I was like, I really want to understand this technology more. And he told me he was like, actually the high intensity isn't needed. He goes, when we developed it for NASA way back when to help the deficiencies that the astronauts were going through, blah, blah, blah, blah, we realized that it didn't need to be that high intensity. I mean, he had gone off and developed his own little device. He called it something completely different from PEMF.

Andy Smith 53:40 
ICES, that one.

Tim Gray 53:41 
Yeah, ICES, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not ISIS, ICES. Yeah, I was trying to say. And he said, it's very low. You don't feel like, you don't feel anything from it. And he said, and this works a lot better. And here's how you do it. I'll send you one. So he sent me one. So I've heard it from the guy himself that invented this stuff that it's mainly marketing hype and it's older technology, but it's like when I use the... the human regenerator bed. I love this device. It's very good, very expensive, but it's really powerful. When you're lying in it, you don't know anything's happening and you have to go on blind faith that something's happening. Except for a little smell of ozone. If they added something to the experience to make you go, oh, there's like a beam of light around me or something like that on it. The mind goes, oh, I'm enjoying this more. Like more senses use. So I think that's the only reason why the higher intensity ones actually like have become so popular. And then the devices such as yours, which is yours is the one that I use. It was on the side of my sofa and kindly sent me one when I was going through my healing for my surgery and I was using it on my face like this every day. I mean, if you're putting it on your face and it was a high intensity one, that'd be pretty grim. So.

Andy Smith 54:57 
It's a good point to make because we get the low intensity, the high intensity and actually at the health optimization summit in a couple of, well, a few days from when this episode goes out, we're launching under the CELLER8 brand, higher intensity PEMF device. And I completely share the story with you that the lower intensity stuff, cheaper, can't feel it, has the same therapeutic benefit as the higher intensity stuff.

However, as you say, it gives you that extra element of something, the experience and the professional settings especially wanna have a high intensity device.

Tim Gray 55:37 
But the thing is, the more thing is again, it's a heuristic. The more things that you can tell us that something's working, if you're just holding something to it and it's not even doing anything, imagine it didn't even have a screen on it or any light, is it even on? You wanna have the opposite of that. I wanna know it's working and making your muscles jump lets you know it's working, it's actually doing something. So I think that user experience is important. I mean, you buy an Apple phone or a laptop, look at the user experience the moment you get the package. So the wrapped in this thing, you've got this thing that slides off and the experience of unboxing it, they want you to keep this box. And they've just made even the unboxing experience ridiculous, but then when you buy a device and it's just like, hope it's working, if you can combat that, it makes people use it more and you help more people from doing so. You know, the big farmer do this, big farmer do this, right? If you buy an Anadin or if you buy any drug, you'll see it's half white, half red or has a breakdown in the middle. Why? Because we perceive red as being more powerful.

Andy Smith 56:42 
Hm.

Tim Gray 56:42 
Why does the anodein have a break mark down the middle? Because it makes you think it's twice as strong. Placebo with a medication. So they're adding to the user experience to make people think that it works better. Exactly the same PEMF.

Andy Smith 56:54 
Yeah, and one of the reasons why we introduced red light therapy, because we've been pioneers in PEMF for like 15 years now. Red light therapy, we only introduced one, two years ago, because we were seeing that people were stacking PEMF for red light because they want that experience. They want the red light, they want to strip down, they want to feel the warmth, all this sort of thing. So it's like, okay, right, let's stack the two together and let's go with that. The other side of the coin on the high-intensity stuff, unfortunately you can't stack with that with anything because you put it near a red light, you know, it's like an EMP. So it's so powerful that it can actually damage the other equipment. So we've got to be careful with the two. How do you think it compares? How do you think PEMF compares with other stuff like other biohacks like hyperbaric, red light, ice baths? Because it's obviously in terms of like easier to use it, that sort of thing.

Tim Gray 57:42 
It doesn't compare, none of them compare. Why do you need PEMF? That would be the question. I don't think it's a linear answer. I think if someone has repairing bones, I think obviously the studies behind how it helps repair bones is just phenomenal, really phenomenal. In fact, I remember seeing a study done where they cut out a piece of a chicken's bone square area and then helped it heal with PEMF, showing how ridiculously fast it healed because of the electrical charge for the bones to regrow. So it really depends on what you need it for.

If you just want to feel better, probably just get your shoes off and stand in the garden. If you don't have a garden, yeah, you can use a PEMF device, but really if you need to heal, it's fantastic, like literally hands down one of the best things you can do. Whereas hyperbaric, also healing, but on a different level, you know, in a different way. And again, if you're using PEMF and hyperbaric to speed up healing and red light and peptides, but you want to throw everything that make your body do what it's supposed to do very quickly. I had a surgery back in 2017 that nearly stopped me going to the Bulletproof Conference. So nearly all of this stuff didn't happen. I had a surgery and he said it would take three months to heal and it was had to be, it was cut open. It was left open as a wound, exposing the muscle, which I'd have to have it dressed every day and cleaned and packed every day until it was healing from the inside out. It healed in three weeks. Peptides, actually human growth hormones, red light therapy, PEMF every day and hyperbaric every day. Three weeks I was done. And then I jumped on a plane to LA. And then that's when I started the summit. So yeah, stacking them is amazing. PEMF is fantastic, but it can't be compared to the other stuff.

Andy Smith 59:24 
Yeah. We've seen a lot more brands entering the space now, especially in that summit, so that sort of thing. We're seeing more and more people entering the PEMF space. Do you think that's because it's becoming more of a buzzword, people are starting to understand it more. Part of my problem, my last 15 years have been educating people on PEMF and it's been an uphill struggle. I generally think a lot of it's down to the fact it's not very Instagrammable because people go and get naked on it. They don't jump into an ice bath. So it's like sitting down watching Love Island isn't that Instagrammable. But can you see that changing? Can you see PEMF becoming more of a household thing?

Tim Gray 59:59 
It works. And in fact, Bob Dennis said this to me himself and I still say it today, it's quite funny. He said, Tim, I've never done any marketing. I've never done anything at all. And yet these babies sell. And I said, well, if it was a ball bearing, you'd have to push it. If it's a lifesaving device, you wouldn't.

Andy Smith 01:00:20 
Mm.

Tim Gray 01:00:20 
And I think there's a lot of truth in that for them being used more. However, it doesn't matter if it's Instagram worthy or not, as if it works. So it's about targeting the right people and letting people understand how well it actually works. Because it's usually the people that just sharing it on Instagram is just for the hype or for how things look, not for the actual efficacy, like how many people I know actually know what methylene blue does, but they walk around with a blue tongue. They don't care. They just want to stand out. They just want to be different. They just want to be special. They just want to be a little bit stand out like people that wear blue blocking glasses during the day do nothing at all. You're in fact, quite the opposite. And yet they do it because they feel special. That's the thing. So it doesn't matter if Instagram people are using it or not. It's whether or not the people that need it are using it or not. And that's the education piece. I had the same with hyperbaric when I opened my clinic. No one else had a hyperbaric clinic in London at the time. No one. And I lucky I had a marketing agency, but I opened on the first day and I was like, right. What now? No one here. But okay. I need to make this work. So it's like, how can I educate people on how amazing hyperbaric therapy is so we can get the clinic up and running? We had two chambers running, you know, 16 to 18 hours a day within three months because people understood what was in it for them. So I would say the same with you and my marketing mind, I figure out who you can, who needs it. That's the whole demographic. I mean, luckily for you chat for GPT now you can say, who's my demographic for people that should pick new PEMF and who are these personas be and put them together for me so I can market to them.

Andy Smith 01:01:58 
No, it's a great question. It's a great answer because you know, it's for us, it's all about traction, education. But what we're seeing now is that 80% of our sales are actually coming through word of mouth. So like you say, it works. They tell their friends, they move it on. It builds. Let's talk about health optimisation summit because I know that's something that is like your baby at the moment. What was the inspiration behind the summit originally? And do you think it has evolved to this year's summit from, was it 2019? You started it?

Tim Gray 01:02:31 
Yeah, 2019. Yeah. 2019 was just a little idea. A thousand people. Now this year it's 4,250. We doubled during COVID because all my competitors focused on doing digital products and we just doubled down and kept on building the best event we can ever build. We've now become number one in the space, which is very, very flattering to hear consistently. Please repeat the question.

Andy Smith 01:02:58 
So how was, what was the inspiration originally? What was your first inspiration? Why did you set up the summit in 2019 and has it evolved because we follow you around at the summit. We love the summit. It is the best. The people that attend are amazing. The speakers are amazing. The guy that organises it, he's okay, but it's a really good summit. And we're quite low. We've been there most years. We followed you now to Austin. You've grown to the US. So it's evolving. You can see it's evolved. It's turning into this machine. But how did it start?

Tim Gray 01:03:37 
I mean, I did the meetup in 2017 in London. In the shard was the first one because my girlfriend at the time worked in an agency there. I'm 50 people for the first meetup. So I knew there was something in it. And then I just did a meetup every six to eight weeks and it grew very quickly. But when I changed it from Biohacker London to Health Optimisation and Biohacker Meetup, then it grew to thousands very quickly. I had this whole database of people on meetup.com that wanted to come and hang out. And I started it, to be completely honest, just as I was coming out of a breakup and I was like, actually, I want to meet myself a healthy woman. I just want to, and I want a social circle. And I'm a, you know, I love people in general, that was 50 people. And then after about a year or so, I met a few people along the way and they were like, why don't you do a bigger version of the summit? I was like, yeah, why not? I mean, if I knew then what I knew now, I probably wouldn't have done it. Because it's just actually, it's absolutely a monster to run. Like, for instance, which speakers? How can you convince the speakers to speak because we don't pay speaker fees? When do they arrive into the town? What's the hotel look like? Is it a good enough standard? Like what time, what stage? All this, like the level of detail is just insane. But it's evolved from being a small little meetup to an event with 4,250 people. It's become such a monster, I would say, that the level of speakers we have is just unreal. And every year I pinch myself to think these, these people I've been following for years or known for years are all on my stage in London. The biggest thing I've learned from the whole journey with the summit and how it's evolved is actually the community aspect.

Andy Smith 01:05:19 
Hmm.

Tim Gray 01:05:21 
Because the line that I started doing, saying recently was, it's not what's in your fridge. It's who you're with when you shop and eat.

Andy Smith 01:05:29 
That's great.

Tim Gray 01:05:29 
Because there's a quote I heard about a year ago. It was like, if you hang around with six billionaires, you'll be the seventh or whatever. Five billionaires, you'll be the sixth. If you hang around with six smokers, five smokers, you'll be the sixth. It's so true, like hanging around, us going out for dinner or whatever, for instance. And I may say a couple of words that's not in your diction. You might start using those words. That's how easily influenced we are as humans. This is why the media works, for instance. So our social circle is so important. And when you have one toxic person in your circle, the amount of energy that goes into this person and how destructive it is, it's almost like the banana.

Andy Smith 01:06:09 
Was going to say the rotten banana analogy.

Tim Gray 01:06:10 
Exactly, yeah. And it's so like that. So now we have a zero policy tolerance policy in our company. If anyone is toxic or constantly causing problems like that, then they're gone. We've just got a team of amazing people. I couldn't do it without the team who are doing the majority of the work. I would say I'm more of the strategy side of things these day. But yeah, the community is the biggest thing. And it's a room full of, rooms full of 4,000 people just like us, who are healthy, happy, looking for things like, it's not just about the health. It's also a hobby. It's, you know, we have sex as humans to reproduce, but we also have sex to have fun. And I think health is the same. Because when you start feeling really good, you're like, this is good stuff. It's not in the gym when you start getting gains. I feel good from it. And it's the same with the community. And I think it's now become more and more community led because we help shape each other. And I think if there's a realization I had from Austin event was that it's not, you don't really remember most of the products. You might buy a few things. You don't remember most of the products. You don't remember most of the talks, but you do remember the people you met or friends you've made. Like, and then, cause I heard it thousands of times, people are like, oh, that's where I met such and such. And we're sitting outside on the grass and no, no, no, no. So it's all about the people. So the natural evolution now is obviously doing some retreats where, you know, you're on a beach hanging out with those people and learning some cool things from keynotes and stuff, which we'll be announcing at the summit.

Andy Smith 01:07:48 
That'll be cool.

Tim Gray 01:07:48 
So yeah, it's all about the community and the people around you.

And you know, when you hang out with good people, how you up your game, if you're ready to up your game or how you're dragged down by people if you're ready to be dragged down.

Andy Smith 01:07:58 
Do you think that community has changed over the years? So, you know, like, were these diehard biohackers to start with or just clinic owners, that sort of thing. Like for our listeners, like who they might not know whether they're appropriate for the show, who is it that goes to the health optimisation summit?

Tim Gray 01:08:15 
It's a really good question actually. I would say the tripe hasn't changed. It's just got bigger. And I think when people hear about it, it's just people that just get you. If you're wearing blue blocking glasses, people go, oh, what's that? They know there must be some benefit in it. Or why have you got a blue tongue? It's not like people aren't pulling funny faces. It's just more people with a similar mindset. And I think COVID did us a massive favor.

Andy Smith 01:08:42 
Let's talk about COVID. Cause you set this up in 2019. And, you know, usually hospitality or events, meetups, they didn't do too well in 2020. How did you navigate that? And why, like you say, was it a good thing?

Tim Gray 01:08:58 
My very dear friend and our COO, Isabel, one of my most favorite humans on the planet of all time. Her and I have such a growth mindset friendship, like siblings from day one. We've never had a single argument, never a bad, like we're always just sowing growth together. And I love this because when COVID happened, it was like, oh shit, we're gonna have to delay it. And I was like, okay, this is the strategy. The problem is we can't do it. What's the solution? Okay, we're gonna continue building this as if nothing's changed until this date. And if COVID is still happening at this date, then we're gonna delay it by six months. But we're not gonna get distracted. We're gonna keep on building. I read one psychological study back in 2010 about recessions. Companies that cut their marketing spend through recessions shrunk and came out the other side smaller. But the one in a hundred brands that continued to market, in fact, doubled down on their market, came out significantly bigger. It's one paper. So I said to her, this is the paper I read. This is what we're gonna do. We're gonna double down on it. And I'm gonna sell, I actually did the selling through that. We didn't have a salesperson. I'm gonna continue to sell the booth space. I'm gonna continue to test out the brands. And I'm gonna, actually I started doing my Instagram at that point. And we just built. And the mindset has always been, I don't care what anyone else is doing. I am building the best damn event I can possibly build with everything that we've got. And COVID just got in the way. And in fact, it did us a favor because we doubled in size. We had two and a half years to sell a one year event, which meant we sold a lot more. There was a massive hype for coming back for it. The community were dying just to hang out again. So for us, it was perfect.

The only scary thing through the whole thing was I was funding keeping the company alive. And it was at the rate of about 20 grand a month. And it was because it was pretty much like I was going to say goodbye to my pension fund. So it was it was at a point where I was like, well, actually, do I pull the plug? No faith. Faith was this is going to come off at some point.

Andy Smith 01:11:12 
Yeah. So, you know, big thing about the summit is changing the mindset on biohacking, functional medicine, health optimization, as you mentioned, what big part of that is the speakers, the people you you know, you invite to stand on your stage and share that vision. So how do you select those speakers? Is there is there a methodology of Tim's Tim's kind of protocol? Giving away all your secrets now

Tim Gray 01:11:41 
No, no, it's a very good question. I only invite speakers I think that have absolute integrity. Like Gary Brecka, like a lot of people say that don't know him, you know, people say stuff about him. So if you knew Gary and how integral he was, you'd love him to a good human, a really good human. So maybe the ultimate human. But for instance, someone with high integrity, but knows their stuff. I mean, I like to think I know the detail, but he knows the detail like far deeper. Same with Ben Greenfield, integral, amazing human, you know, people think he's a bit crazy from the outside sometimes because of stuff that he does, but he's a great human. The combination of someone knowing their stuff better than anyone else is the first marker. Integral has to because we just don't want those drama queens or divas just can't just cause problems. We're building a big event and the ones that causes problems we just don't work with like the ones that always delaying or don't answer or this that the other we can't, we just don't deal with that. But we have got to the point of luxury where we've become such a big brand now that people really want to be on our stage.

Whereas in year one, two, we had to beg people to be on our stage.

Andy Smith 01:13:03 
Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Gray 01:13:04 
So and then based on our programming, what topics do we want to cover? Um, and then final their reach. So if they are, for instance, if there's an up and coming speaker that no one knows about, but they've got an amazing topic that fits in with our agenda, well, then I would invite them. However, we get about 400 applications a year, 400 and it's nuts and everyone just casually throws out, Oh yeah, I'd love to speak or I'll speak as in like they're doing me a favor, but I don't think they realize that actually so many people want to speak and it's one of the most valuable things you can do is actually speak on the stage. And I would say for my career progression on, I didn't do it strategically, but I've spoken on now my main stage. This would be my sixth time on one of the biggest stages in the space. And I've been invited to many of the big stages on the other events as well.

Andy Smith 01:14:01 
Yeah.

Tim Gray 01:14:01 
Because once you're on the big stage, people notice and you get invited into all sorts of places and things because you're a keynote speaker. And so I would say it's such a valued prize to be on a stage next to the amazing people like Gary and Ben and, you know, Dr. Bondo, Wright. And, you know, or Marissa Pierre and things like that, that people notice. So it's a, it's a, it's a very complex, I would say set of decisions. Yeah. And in fact, there's only one person that's spoken on the stage every year, except for 2019. And that's Dr. Dom.

Andy Smith 01:14:38 
Hm.

Tim Gray 01:14:39 
That's it. Yeah. There's only one person that's done that.

Andy Smith 01:14:42 
And he's a very good personal connection to you, isn't he?

Tim Gray 01:14:44 
He's my best friend. But, but his message.

Andy Smith 01:14:47 
And I think again, it shows, you know, the genuine side of Tim.

Tim Gray 01:14:50 
No, he's, he is my best friend and I don't want it to be a big boys club. But at the same time, his mission, I promised when we met that we would support each other's missions and he has helped me with mine so much more than I can ever say. But at the same time, his topic of health starts in the mouth because it leads to the gut and how, you know, dentists fix bites and don't know how to fix health. I think if every dentist learnt what he was doing, I think the world would be much, much healthier place, gut and mouth wise. And a lot of chronic issues wouldn't be a problem. So I support that every year.

Andy Smith 01:15:26 
As with the PEMF space, it's getting quite crowded. So is the summit space. Well, you know, very simple summary, if you've mentioned some of the key points anyway, but what makes the health optimization something better than these other ones that are popping out of the woodwork?

Tim Gray 01:15:44 
They're all amazing in their own right.

Andy Smith 01:15:47 
Heh.

Tim Gray 01:15:49 
I don't care what they're doing. I am literally building the best event I can ever build. Like you can have the tallest tower in town or you can have the second tallest in tower in town, or you can knock everyone else's down and have the tallest tower in town. I just like to build the best I can. That's it.

I would say the things that stand out for us are the community because there's just so many amazing people in the brands that I personally select every single one of them. There's not, it's not just about money. It money is a factor because it's a very expensive machine to run. And it's a very high risk business. Um, but also the speakers, like I spend a lot of my year getting to know, hanging out with inviting speakers to speak on our stage so that they can teach and support them. And they support us. I would say that our lineup is probably one of the best that's world's ever seen. And I would say that I'm the founder, but I hear this frequently whether or not people I'm biased because people are telling me what I want to hear. But, um, I would say that the lineup is just ridiculously good. Um, the brands are vetted by me, not just some salesperson, just trying to fill their quota for the brands that we say, we say no more than we do. Yes, to be honest, significantly more. Um, there are other events popping up and I support them. I'm really happy if another event pops up, if it's done, if it's done King-like and we all like the rising tide, opposed to knocking each other down, then I support a hundred percent, um, but we've become the biggest and biggest doesn't mean the best and it doesn't mean it's going to stay there forever. It does mean that you need to continue to innovate and make it the best, just like you have with your product, make it that little bit better user experience. We're optimizers. We do this every year and we improve on it every year. And this year is going to be the next level. Next year we've added even more, including retreats and, uh, some other sexy things going on this year. We've actually got a Saturday night party, which we've never properly done before, which is going to be, it was really good.

Andy Smith 01:17:55 
So, and anyone listening to the podcast, um, you know, Tim's actually allowed me space on one of the stages, one of the smallest stages at the moment, but watch this space. I'll be working up to, to keynote in no time. Um, you mentioned other things you're doing. Uh, I've got a note here for the health optimization digital program. Can you explain what that is?

Tim Gray 01:18:15 
Yeah. I mean, I don't really talk about it to be honest. I mean, I've created it back during COVID actually. It's just the fundamentals of health. It's like where you should start in your biohacking journey, eat well, sleep well, hydrate well, some well ground well, move well, all of these things in one place, basically with a rundown from it. Um, so yeah, that, I mean, that's still, it still sells, but we don't really, I don't really talk about it. Everyone seems to have a course these days.

Andy Smith 01:18:39 
And I love the, the idea of retreats because, uh, you know, we've been on a retreat together before we've met in Ibiza, actually we spend less time together in London than we do when we met in Miami. And so, yeah, the idea of retreat sounds pretty good. And let me know when that's up.

Tim Gray 01:18:56 
Corfu 27th of April, 2026. Corfu.

Andy Smith 01:19:02 
Very close to the wife's birthday, but I'll have to swing that one.

Tim Gray 01:19:04 
Could be the birthday tree. A hundred, a hundred VV VIPs, um, with six or seven keynote speakers, breathwork, mountain hikes, local food, farm to table food, olive grove, finding all the technologies, the ice bars, the saunas, the lot that, I mean, it's basically for a hundred, no, a hundred people only.

Andy Smith 01:19:26 
So yeah, so this is a much smaller intimate setting or, you know, a real deep dive into, into good. Okay. I want to start wrapping us up and start talking about, um, you know, the, the conversation as a whole, I've got one more little quick fire for you. Okay. So this is more of a choice rather than, or, or a question, uh, rather than a score. So carnivore or vegan? Easy choice.

Tim Gray 01:19:54 
Hahaha, give me a steak.

Andy Smith 01:19:57 
Uh, ice bath or sauna?

Tim Gray 01:19:59 
Sauna

Andy Smith 01:19:59 
Immediately after waking up coffee or cold plunge?

Tim Gray 01:20:03 
Neither. No,

Andy Smith 01:20:06 
Uh, one song that gives you goosebumps?

Tim Gray 01:20:09 
I want to look this name up and you can cut this little bit out. I'm going to tell you, it's bloody amazing. I'm telling you, it is called. It's called space by, uh, French fuse.

Andy Smith 01:20:24 
Yeah.

Tim Gray 01:20:24 
An insane song.

Andy Smith 01:20:26 
Okay. I'll look that one up. Get that on the train home. Uh, worst gym fail. If you've had one?

Tim Gray 01:20:31 
No. None.

Andy Smith 01:20:34 
One supplement for the rest of your life?

Tim Gray 01:20:35 
Actually ask me that one again, please ask me that one again.

Andy Smith 01:20:38 
Worst gym fail?

Tim Gray 01:20:39 
I was doing skull crusher on the cables the other day and I put the weights up. My muscles have got stronger than my posture. I went to put it forward and it pulled me back. Anyway, that's really bad.

Andy Smith 01:20:52 
One supplement for the rest of your life?

Tim Gray 01:20:54 
Trimethylglycine.

Andy Smith 01:20:55 
One thing you always travel with?

Tim Gray 01:20:58 
Hydrogen water and methylene blue.

Andy Smith 01:21:00 
That was two. Would you put the methylene blue in the hydrogen water? Are you a morning person or night owl?

Tim Gray 01:21:07 
Both

Andy Smith 01:21:07 
Where is your phone at night?

Tim Gray 01:21:08 
In an Elvy charger, which is EMF protected charger.

Andy Smith 01:21:15 
Yeah, in the bedroom or?

Tim Gray 01:21:16 
It's in the bedroom, yeah, but it's EMF protected.

Andy Smith 01:21:18 
Protected. Who inspires you the most in the biohacking space right now? That's your final question on the quickfire.

Tim Gray 01:21:26 
Hmmm.

Andy Smith 01:21:35 
We'll keep this long pause in. It creates tension.

Tim Gray 01:21:39 
I would say Gary Breaka.

Andy Smith 01:21:43 
Do you want to elaborate or are we going to stick with that?

Tim Gray 01:21:45 
He is just so integral. He's had my back. He really is just so full of energy and he wants to help change the world. He has a photographic memory. I've seen firsthand his integrity. And he is, I often text him and just say, dude, you've broken the matrix. You know, uh, the people that he has got to in terms of like helping with their health and he's just literally, I think Bryan Johnson has done it through extremism stuff. Gary has been the more common sense approach and I'm very proud to say, I know Gary.

Andy Smith 01:22:21 
And that's actually one person I was going to bring up as well was Bryan Johnson. Cause we went to an event where we actually got lucky enough to meet him person. Um, he does overcomplicate by hacking slightly. Um.

Tim Gray 01:22:33 
He doesn't understand health in my opinion. And I'm going to tell it, I'm going to say, I'm going to do it. So, you know, if you don't have healthy teeth, putting veneers on or whatever, it doesn't mean you have healthy teeth tick fast-tracked. If you say you have good thyroid hormones, but you take thyroid meds, doesn't mean you have a good thyroid. You're not the healthiest human in the world. Just because you have more nighttime boners than anyone else in your age, doesn't mean you've got better hormonal health. If you're taking Cialis every night, it's like having a car and putting speedometer to a hundred mile an hour and saying it's going a hundred mile an hour. Dude, it's not figure health out. You're trusting people or talking about stuff and being a marketer opposed to actually doing what matters. And so anyone, I'm sorry, with very rare exception, veganism does not help someone's health. It may for a while, while it clear out all the crap from the crappy foods that they're eating, long-term, there's very small percentage of people that can be super healthy on it and the amount of supplements he has to take on a daily basis. And when I see any influencer biohacker with a mouthful of supplements promoting it, like they're a pro, it tells me they're a beginner because we just need one degree shifts in these things to be on point. We don't need to be throwing all this stuff into stress, the liver, over complicating stuff. So, you know, I think Bryan means well, and I think there's a little boy in there that needs saving somewhere and he's enjoying the fame, even though he acts like he doesn't enjoy the fame, but he's he is doing good for the space by getting a lot of awareness of this stuff. But it is the extreme edge, really extreme edge. So I don't think he understands health is the true answer.

Andy Smith 01:24:21 
Do you have any advice on people to not overcomplicate it like he does?

Tim Gray 01:24:26 
Yeah, easy. Like I said before, eat well, sleep well, hydrate well, sun well, ground well, move well, love well. You know, I mean, it's really very basic.

Andy Smith 01:24:36 
Yeah.

Tim Gray 01:24:37 
And any biohack is pretty much mimicking nature in an unnatural world.

Andy Smith 01:24:42 
And is that the same advice you'd give people to them starting on their biohacking journey? Because that was one of the kind of wrapping up questions was if somebody comes to you and says, all right, Tim, I want to be a health optimizer, I want to be a biohacker, where do I start?

Tim Gray 01:24:55 
I'm not going to say the list again. I would say if there's one hack and I'm going to because I've said that list several times now and you can put a link in the show notes to the Instagram post for it, but. I would say. If you're underslept, you know it. Most of us are chronically underslept and we don't realize it. And when you realize that. I heard JJ Virgin say this the other week and I love it. You don't build muscles in the gym, you damage them in the gym. You build muscles when you sleep. You use the energy you have collected during the day to repair your body at night. So if you're going to bed much after sunset, with blue light in your face, stimulating all your neurotransmitters and stopping you secreting your sleep hormone and then you wait with an alarm clock, shortening it again. You're missing probably 15 to 20% at minimum of your repair time. You are never going to be optimal. And people think, oh, I've got to go to bed because I'm tired. Shouldn't be going to bed because I'm tired. It should be going to bed because you know you need to repair. So the biggest longevity hack is to sleep properly and to respect the time when you go to sleep and the amount of time until you wake up and not waking with an alarm clock or going to bed earlier. So you don't need an alarm clock. That's if there's, there's one thing that I'm super strict with is that because I know that all the other functions in the body work better.

Andy Smith 01:26:36 
And it's one of the reasons why I'm wearing my whoop at the moment. I don't wear it 365 days a year. What I tend to do, because of, I don't like the EMFs to come from it, all that sort of thing, but tend to stick it on for a month every six months because it reminds me how to sleep properly. What happens when you drink alcohol the next day? A few little things I do need reminding on, you know, through this space. And I think, like you say, sleep is so important. And actually, if my whoop just tells me you didn't get much sleep last night, you need to get to bed earlier tonight and you don't want to get up for 7.30. You know, it just gives me that little put in my habits back in, into, into, into touch.

Tim Gray 01:27:15 
Yeah, this is what a good social network or your people would do as well. I mean, device is good for that. I would recommend changing out to the gambit, gabit ring, g-a-b-i-t, good habit, because you don't need to put it on airplane mode. It automatically disconnects and doesn't ping. That's cool.

Andy Smith 01:27:30 
That's good advice. Yeah, that's one of the only reasons why I don't wear this.

Tim Gray 01:27:33 
I really don't like whoop. I really don't like whoop. Actually, I don't like 8sleep either. Actually, they offered me one last week and I said, sorry, the EMFs are too high.

Andy Smith 01:27:44 
Yeah, it's I mean, you know, in PEMF, that's what we're all about. It's all low harmonizing, same as the Earth's natural frequencies, all that sort of thing. So again, you know, I'm shooting myself in the foot when I go to bed with the whoop on, that's why I don't like to do it 365 days a year. And actually, I think it negatively impacts my health, my sleep. Having it on my on my wrist, especially when you're sleeping, you know, with with with your hand up. So that's a good advice. I'm going to change out to that room.  

Tim Gray 01:28:10 
Actually, the founder is coming to the summit and they're not exhibiting or anything. I met the guy, actually, Bryan Johnson's event in Stockholm a few months ago. Great guy.

Andy Smith 01:28:19 
OK, send him over to our booth. Last question, really, like, where do you see the biohacking health optimization industry in five, 10 years? And what are you excited about? Is there anything that you kind of think? He's going to be a big game changer.

Tim Gray 01:28:35 
No. No, I don't see anything that's going to be a big game changer, really. I think we're just becoming more aware of what we need to operate properly. More and more people are becoming aware of what they missed out during Covid. And I hate to mention Covid again, but the point is, is it made people realize it's like if something is always just OK, like a marriage or your car or your food is just OK. You don't step up because you don't think it's a major problem. Only when shit hits the fan, when you're like, oh. I'm going to have to buy a new car or oh, I think we need counseling or something, you know, whatever it may be. The phoenix rising from the ashes is a very well known thing for a reason, because if it's always just OK, we don't really do. We don't act on anything. We prioritize things that are more urgent. Now with Covid, people realize it's pretty bad. They're in a bad state. They knew people died and it could happen again. So a lot of it's fear based. But the thing is gone wider. Now we're in the longevity gold rush because of the Maha movement and RFK rolling out all of these things in the US and all the problems with the vaccines, everything. People are like, oh, I do need to think about this a little bit more. So it's helped us. And Big Pharma didn't account for that. They're going for their short term profits. But really, they've lost a big part of the long term game as a result. So I think there's nothing. There's no new technology that's going to come out that's really going to blow me away. It's not really. I mean, we've thought of most things, really, I would say for now anyway. An era of advancement I do like right now is stem cells because we've actually got to talk at the summit and it's going to blow the lid off of it. Democratizing stem cells so they're readily available everywhere. And Dr. Toby is going to be speaking about it at the summit. So, yeah, that's probably the most interesting thing I know of right now and probably the most interesting thing I've heard of since I've been in this space.

Andy Smith 01:30:39 
Yeah.

Tim Gray 01:30:40 
Well, so that's why I invited him to speak.

Andy Smith 01:30:43 
Good. Any last minute teasers for the health optimization summit this year.

Tim Gray 01:30:48 
Mmm  Come and meet your heroes, come and meet new friends, come and enjoy some of the good technologies, the supplements, the foods, the party vibe, just like, you know, it's pretty good investment. And I'm like, I know the tickets cost generally a lot of money. When you compare it to most events, it's actually pretty good price. And it costs us a ridiculous amount of money to put these events on. But the amount of value you get for it is ridiculous. You've got so many big names all in one place. And the vibe is just fantastic. In fact, we, when we did Austin, we didn't expect to hit it so hard. People were just saying the vibe was completely different to all of the other events they went to. That's all tribe.

Andy Smith 01:31:34 
Yeah.

Tim Gray 01:31:34 
And I think we all just want to be healthier, happier, be around amazing people. So come and enjoy the show. I don't need to sell it. Yeah, you'll miss out if you don't come. Click the link in my bio. No, but jokes aside, it's a really, it's a really, really good event. And I remember when I was just an attendee of other events, I could not wait for that time to come around every year. And it was actually like significantly, it's probably double the price of the events that I would go to at least. And we've brought it down consistently year on year to help it become more accessible to people actually. Some people say, well, why can't you just do it for free? Like you do realize how many million it costs to put this event on. And, you know, it's really quite nuts. So yeah, let's just come and enjoy the show. If not, you'll see it on Instagram and you'll be like, Oh, I want to go next year. Why didn't I go this year?

Andy Smith 01:32:25 
And just for our listeners, to be clear, so health hospitalization summit that we've got in a few days time is in London. And then there is another event in America, which was in Austin last year. Can you tell us where it is this year?

Tim Gray 01:32:39 
No

Andy Smith 01:32:39 
Not yet.

Tim Gray 01:32:42 
But London 13th to 14th September, Angel Islington, hosummit.com forward slash UK is the link. I'm not opening my mouth about the US.

Andy Smith 01:32:52 
But it's in April. That correct or May?

Tim Gray 01:32:56 
What? No I'm not. I'm not saying a word about this one, man. But the retreat is in April. The retreat is 24th through 27th of April.

Andy Smith 01:33:05 
So that's another thing to look forward to. Where can our listeners find you if they want to find you your content or if they want to know more about the health hospitalization summit?

Tim Gray 01:33:16 
So hosummit.com forward slash UK is the health hospitalization summit. I'm @timbiohacker on Instagram and social medias, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, that's about it.

Andy Smith 01:33:27 
Good stuff, thank you for the conversation today, Tim. It's been pretty educational.

Tim Gray 01:33:32 
Thanks for having me.

Andy Smith 01:33:33 
Yeah. And I think probably one of our longest ones. So thanks for having us.

Tim Gray 01:33:37 
Wow. Crazy. Yeah. Time flies.