Andy Smith 00:00 
A quick disclaimer before we begin, the PEMF podcast does not contain any medical advice and the content provided is for informational purposes only. If you have any health concerns, please visit a healthcare professional.

Welcome back to another episode of the PEMF podcast. Today, we're joined by someone you may have seen on YouTube and his videos about PEMF or through his book, PEMF, The Fifth Element of Health, and that's Brian Myers. We're going to explore some of the effects of PEMF that has in the body, some of the mechanism behind it. We're also going to look into the deeper, darker sides of the multi-therapy mat, so something you want us to tune into. Brian, for anyone that hasn't heard of you or seen you before on YouTube, can you introduce yourself and just let everybody know a little bit about yourself?

Bryant Meyers 00:44 
Yeah, well, of course, my name is Bryant Myers. I did write a book called PEMF, the fifth element of health. It's been, you know, sold very well. I think over 100,000 copies now. I do have a popular YouTube channel. I've been very passionate about energy medicine since about 1995. I do have a master's degree in physics. I mean, I used to teach college math and physics at, you know, central Michigan and community colleges. But that was always kind of part time. I'd always been passionate about health and wellness and energy medicine kind of on the side. And yeah, I just PEMF is something I've been really excited about since 2007. So it's been my main focus for about 17 years now. And I mean, I've tried and owned over a million dollars in energy medicine devices, which is no exaggeration. And probably now I've owned about 40 PEMF devices. I'm currently testing out some high intensity just because people keep asking about it. And I mean, you know, I'm like, okay, well, we'll just keep an open mind. You know, I never claimed to have all the answers. So I have not spoken highly about high intensity in the past. But anyway, always testing and trying new devices, you know, looking on in my oscilloscope and, you know, and trying to provide the best PEMF information. And I just ended up affiliating for the devices that I really think are the best devices. So which, which include a couple different brands. And yeah, it's been my passion. I mean, it's all that I do really mostly full time along with red light therapy. I do that on this, I have a red light therapy business too. But I would say PEMF is my main focus.

Andy Smith 02:21 
And that's good. And it's all good kind of knowing a PEMF device from the surface, you know, seeing the anecdotal results that you get and the sort of thing. But something unique about yourself is that you pull apart the devices, you look at them, you look at see how they tick and and how that affects the body. So it's interesting. We'll come into that a little bit more. What would be good to know is what was your first ever mention or involvement of PEMF? How did that happen? You know, how did you stumble across the PEMF industry? And, you know, what was that story?

Bryant Meyers 02:52 
Yeah, I mean, just being into energy medicine, I'm just trying to remember the first PEMF device that I, I mean, I think it was the QRS way back in the early 2000s, didn't really get a great result from it, so I never got excited about PEMF at that time. And then I think it was, then I just tried some other things like the Earth pulse and some things that were supposed to be good for sleep and, but again, this is me trying all these different energy devices, not just PEMF. And but it never really, you know, that didn't really do much for me. I got the Beamer back in like 2005, it was, it was called the Beamer 3000 back then. And it's like, okay, this is people were like just raving about it and it's like there was more buzz around that than say the others I had tried. I'm like, okay, there's people are saying all these great testimonials and I think I used it for like six months and just kind of gave up on it. It wasn't really, again, wasn't really doing a whole lot for me. And so then a couple of years go by and I think it was the Wolf Clinic, I was on Darren Wolf's email list and I kind of kept in touch with a lot of these wellness. And he sent me an email about the MRS2000, as I know, and he gave his testimonials and why it was great. I'm like, and me just being, trying everything, it's like, okay, well, why not? Let's just get it. So, so the first, now with this unit, the first unit, the first night I used it, I noticed better sleep the first night. And this is a time where I was having terrible insomnia and the Beamer, the Beamer didn't help and the Earth pulse didn't help. And that's why, again, one of the things I was hoping for with the Earth pulse, he was claiming, oh, you're going to sleep better and it just didn't do it. But the IMRS, it worked. I mean, it worked. So I got my attention. It's like, wow, this is really working here. So I, being a networker, I had many of my friends try it out and I was getting good, really good response, really great testimonials. It's like, wow, this one really seems to be working. So it just kind of snowballed and, you know, and that's just been my experience with other devices I've, you know, worked with in the past is they just work, right? So I can't be a part of something where it's not helping people. Like I had a three-day call, oh, I forgot to mention, I had a three-day colon cleanse that was my first really online business. And you know, my initials, Brian Meyers, B.M., I guess it was kind of fitting. But that was really successful, too. So I kind of learned how to do internet marketing with that three-day colon cleanse. And then I got this NoBrux K1 vibration machine through my friend and mentor, Peter Ragnar, who's a well-known like anti-aging and enlightenment type of, you know, abundance coach. He's just an amazing guy. So he was, his whole group, I was networked, his whole group, and, you know, they had this vibration platform. And that really was working for people. So the MRS2000 was like that, too. So that was like my third really big online business was the MRS2000, which became the IMRS and then MediConsult switched to SwissBionic. So now, I mean, I do affiliate for other brands now. Back then I was just dedicated to them. I wasn't really recommending other devices, but I mean, yeah, it's, and then over the years, I'm constantly trying out devices. So I try to keep an open mind. And I'm in a space now where, you know, I, you know, potentially, we'll see. I mean, we're working on developing a device that I can be a part of. So we'll see how that goes. But that's still kind of, I can't say a whole lot about that.

Andy Smith 06:28 
No, cool. That'd be interesting to find out more. Maybe we'll get you back for another episode when when you can let us know how that's developing. You've been in the industry for quite a long time. So I'm going to kind of pick your brain on some of the subjects that we know our listeners will want to want to kind of know about. And going back to the very beginning of of like PEMF and its first FDA approval for non-union bone fractures, quite a lot of people might not know about the story of Dr. Robert Becker and the frog in the salamander experiment and how that led to PEMF's first FDA approval. So I've heard you mention it before and talk about it before. So can you share that with our with our listeners?

Bryant Meyers 07:04 
Well, I mean, yeah, some of my favorite books are like, you know, Cross Currents and Body Electric. And, you know, Robert Becker, he was one of the pioneers in electrotherapy energy medicine. And one of his early studies, well, of course, his big contemplation was, how is it the salamanders regenerate in like a whole limb? And why don't we? And why don't frogs that are close relatives of salamanders, right? So you'd think a frog and a salamander, they have all this genetic, you know, all this commonalities in their genetics, why don't they both regenerate? So he did a whole bunch of experiments. And if he actually ended up mapping out like a whole electrical grid of the salamander, you may have seen it's like an iconic picture of a salamander and like a whole electrical circuit superimposed, because he found that you have positive charge in the core of the salamander, like positive in the head, in the center of the head. And then the tail and the limbs had a negative charge. And of course, you know, from a positive to a negative, you get what you get a flow of current, right? So it turns out that when you when you cut off a salamanders arm, for example, or you can even take one of it's like a bit of its eye out or like one third of its brain, and it'll still regenerate. It's amazing. You get but the stump of the of the severed limb was was an easier thing to test. And what Robert Becker found was that there was a very high, like a high voltage, or like you could say it's almost like a live wire, like there's current flowing to that stump. And in what Robert Becker found, it was that electrical current, which is kind of you can call it like an injury current is what it was been called over the years is what stimulated the stem cells to, you know, to regenerate or to differentiate and to regenerate the limb.

Andy Smith 08:53 
Mm.

Bryant Meyers 08:53 
the whole thing was driven by electrical current. And what he found with the frog was that the stump, the current, there wasn't a voltage swing like there was a salamander. There was a little bit, but not nearly. But the salamander went way up. With the frog, it didn't really take that big swing. And the stump kind of healed over. So what he found was that when he added current to the frog stump, he could get a frog arm to regenerate too. So, and of course his big passion was, another contemplation of his is why do bones heal better than some other types of tissues in the body that don't seem to heal as fast or at all at some times. And so his interest was applying for humans, this idea of stimulating microcurrents to regeneration, like salamanders, applying that to bones. And again, in the early days, and they were using electrodes, they surgically implant electrodes on both sides of a fracture, especially like non-union fractures. He was, you know, they're fractures that didn't heal. But that's a very invasive process, right? So there's actually, it's actually an interesting story because Andrew Bassett was flying to a conference, an orthopedic surgeon conference, which Robert Becker was gonna be a speaker at. And it just so happened that Arthur Pilla was in a seat on the plane right next to him. And Arthur Pilla, it was said that he was very nosy. So, because Andrew was gonna give a presentation too, and he was going over his, what were those, remember those old slides and the slide projectors? Maybe you don't remember.

Andy Smith 10:36 
Right, yeah, no idea, just about.

Bryant Meyers 10:38 
Yeah so he was going over his slides and Arthur's like nosy, it's like he could see this little thing where it was like little, it was dendritic outgrowth and it was, he's like oh because Arthur Pilla was a, he was like into like electricity, chemistry and electrical chemistry basically and he's like oh I know what that is, that's dendritic outgrowth on like a metal that shorts out a metal circuit you know when you got these little metal type of almost hair like whisker like things and Andrew Bassett's like no that's bone, that's not metal and it's like this is current to stimulate bone and it just and it got and he got really interested in that so it turned out those two really hit it off and Arthur was like you know you can use, you can use induction coils, you don't have to surgically implant electrodes and that was like of course the big aha, that's what PEMF is you know or you can see you can say it's inductive coupling right so instead of applying current with electrodes to the both sides of the bone you can use a PEMF coil and induce through Faraday's law of induction microcurrents naturally using your own body's natural charges and it's much less invasive and so they did a lot of research initially with beagles and again they're trying to find a non-unit bone fracture solution that's non-invasive and then they then they went from beagles to human studies and then from human studies they got FDA approval I think in 1979 for their bone stimulator but it all started with you know understanding from you know how do salamanders regenerate and and it's actually not I mean even John Birch back in the 1800s they used electrodes for bone but they had no idea they don't really know why it was working back then but but they but it's but but that kind of got with the Flexner report you know and it's kind of the dark ages in the U.S. here where big pharma kind of took over for a while but Robert Becker was the one and you know a lot of others like him to bring back electro medicine you know it started to surge back in the 60s and 70s and I think it just keeps keeps increasing in popularity because it works you know it's natural non-invasive solutions I mean you know things like a non-union fracture our our medical system doesn't have an answer for it.

Andy Smith 13:09 
No, it's really interesting actually how the universe works because we've had this podcast lined up for a week or two now and we've written all the questions for it and we mentioned in this frog and salamander experiment and two days ago i'd chop the end of my finger off anyone that follows me in instagram would have seen the story. I was putting up a mirror on the wall and managed to shatter the thing and lost the section of me thumb me me middle finger so what i'm actually going to try and do don't worry i'm all patched up now all back together but what i actually want to do is do a bit of studies myself and to see how he is going to regrow that finger and how quickly because you know it's it's like you say it's part of the foundation of the images.

Bryant Meyers 13:57 
that Robert Becker shared was he had someone that severed off. I mean, it was almost just above the knuckle leave. And it was like, right, it wasn't the whole, it was like half of the tip of someone's finger. And he did this time lapse with like a lecture type of therapy and showed the regeneration process.

Andy Smith 14:15 
Yeah, so I'll be doing my own in-house study now on my own finger.

Bryant Meyers 14:19 
Yeah, no, you definitely get PEMF on it, and it will help to, again, stimulate those healing microcurrents that will stimulate stem cells and growth factors and regeneration.

Andy Smith 14:31 
Yeah, no, for sure. So I'll be sharing my story on that one. Anyway, as time progresses, I'll let you know how I get on.

Bryant Meyers 14:37 
Try to do a time lapse if you can. I don't know how bad it is.

Andy Smith 14:42 
Yeah, I mean the initial I've got initial pictures and videos of the wound and it's a it's a cringe worthy I'll be sharing I'm sure Yeah. Um, so yeah, taking it back a little bit. Uh, well, no, sorry, bringing it forward a little bit. We're in, in more recent weeks research. Uh, we see that PEMF has the ability to increase ATP and nitric oxide. Uh, we haven't spoken about that too much on the podcast. So what effect, you know, how, how's the PEMF doing that? And what effect is that good for the body?

Bryant Meyers 15:12 
Yeah, to me it all starts with if you have a good PEMF signal, we'll talk about slew rate in a little bit, that induces healing microcurrents because that's one of the primary most easily understood mechanisms of PEMF, is that it's inducing microcurrents naturally, non-invasively without electrodes, using your own bodies, charges, and it's not just the calcium and sodium, potassium, and magnesium. We have all these natural charges in our body that are charges in solution, that's why we're conductive, right? So I have a little toy I hold on to, it's a little demonstration where you put one hand on one side, then as soon as you touch the other it lights up and makes noise because the circuit is your whole body is a conductor. So we are conductors, we conduct electricity, and we have many conductive mediums. We have our bones, our piezoelectric, obviously our nerves are conducting electricity all the time. Collagen, which is the primary protein in our body in solution as a conductor, the primovascular system, the meridians, the acupuncture and meridian system has been linked to the primovascular system, has been pretty well getting better and better mapped out. That's very conductive, so we have all these conductive pathways in the body, and that goes down to the cellular level and even the mitochondrial level, and so that when you think of ATP, ATP happens in the mitochondria, right? And so it's through the Krebs cycle, and then through the electron transport chain, and then finally you got ATPase sort of creating ATP from ADP, sometimes AMP to ADP. ATP is adenosine triphosphate, and that's the universal current of energy in the body. That's kind of like our body has, in fact we use our weight in ATP a day. Even though we only have a handful of grams of ATP, it's constantly turning over.

Andy Smith 17:13 
Mmm.

Bryant Meyers 17:14 
It's like a little rechargeable battery that gets charged and then discharges the energy charges and then discharges and that discharge energy is used to create all the You know, you know your muscle movement your brain activity everything that makes your body move and be alive I mean in part requires I think there's more to it than just ATP There's like probably life force and Chi and other things but at least from a molecular biology perspective It seems that ATP is the primary source of energy And so studies have shown like there's a study in 2019 by Zhang That ate that PEMF increases ATP up to six hundred percent Now the average of that study was about a hundred percent increase, which is still very significant but he'd saw up to six hundred percent increase in ATP and And it makes sense to me too because the elect when you know PEMF is inducing current flow So the electron transport chain that is a flow of current It's like kind of a downhill flow of of current where you know, it's this hole There's these five complexes in the mitochondria and essentially Fadh and nadh2 are to come out of the Krebs cycle, right? And those are like condensed elect you can think of them less condensed stores of electrons And so so these then pass the electrons from complex one all the way down to cytochrome c oxidase Which is complex for that's where oxygen docks and that's of course oxygen is the final electron acceptor So now and this is interesting how the two tie together when we'll get to nitric oxide because when you increase circulation you get more Oxygenation so you get more oxygen to the mitochondria and that also helps because the oxygens pulling the electrons Down this in fact half of the electron transport chain comes from oxygen the electronegativity of oxygen So without oxygen we resort to glycolysis which only produces two or four ATP molecules versus 38 So this is important So PEMF is kind of in many ways helping to push this flow of electrons that then pump out Hydrogen, you know, you get this mitochondrial membrane potential, right? So the height the hydrogen gets pumped out and then at the last complex complex five, which is ATPase this is where now ATP is created or you can say recharge from ADP and So and this is where now the protons flow back downhill and it's this electrochemical gradient. That's driving this rotor It's like a little molecular rotor ATPase it's really cool when you look at some of the molecular biology of it and through this little rotor that the energy that rotor is What kind of helps to read recharge ATP? So and there was a study showing I forget that who did the study that PEMF enhances ATPase activity as well so and interestingly the Zang study that was it was using low intensity and I find it I find it interesting that There's an expert in PEMF that promotes high intensity. He loves to quote that Zang study Not really realizing that if he promotes high intensity But that study is done with low intensity and yet I and every podcast I listen to him He's like wait a minute. You're quoting a study. That's low intensity and you're you keep recommending high intensity. Yeah. Yeah, but um But so there's really good research and then even like a study by Chang in 1982 Showed that like electro currents also increase ATP 300 to 500 percent And again, what does PEMF do we're trying to induce those microcurrents So I call PEMF 3d microcurrent therapy because it's it's very similar I think it's redundant to use both microcurrent and PEMF I don't think you really need microcurrent therapy because PEMF just works better Yeah, I mean you get you get a greater volume of air you can cover a larger volume. There's less resistance It's less invasive. You don't have to surgically implant electrodes And again, it's using your own body's natural charges and conductive pathways You're not like you get like with with select tens units. You can get little micro electrocutions You know that like so because you're adding electricity to the body PEMF is inducing that healing electrical flow within the body So whether it's ATP or nitric oxide or all these other mechanisms It seems to all start with this flow of electrons like Albert sa Georgie I can never pronounce his name the hung great Hungarian of Nobel Prize winner he would say life is but a flow of electrons You know and it's and that's not the whole quote, but it's that's the essence of the quote, right? So it really when you really contemplate ATP and all these, you know, the flow of energy even in the meridians That's probably just bioelectricity. It really isn't in one sense life is, you know, a flow of electrons

Andy Smith 22:10 
Yeah.

Bryant Meyers 22:11 
And PEMF gets that flow going, gets that energy moving and going.

Andy Smith 22:15 
And you mentioned the nitric oxide, like so, you know, for our listeners, is that the production of nitric oxide or is it putting nitric oxide into the body or is it making use of nitric oxide? How is PEMF influencing the nitric oxide levels in us?

Bryant Meyers 22:30 
I mean, that's one of the more well-researched aspects of PEMF. In fact, there was just a Mayo Clinic study in 2020 that showed that PEMF increases nitric oxide. And it increases, of course, the endothelial nitric oxide, which is the beneficial nitric oxide. Because nitric oxide is sort of a Janus face, like the Greek, the god that's got two faces, right? So nitric oxide can be bad and it can be good. But in its good form, like from the endothelial nitric oxide or the neuronal nitric oxide, which are the good, see, it's the induced nitric oxide, the INOS, at the cell level that can cause oxidative stress. But typically, not to get too confused on that, well, let's just focus on the good because this is what PEMF helps to enhance. And so endothelial nitric oxide is basically like, and it is a gas, I mean, but of course it's in our body kind of in solution in a sense, but it does help to stimulate the widening of the blood vessels. In fact, it has a kind of a relaxing effect. It kind of relaxes the blood vessels so they can widen. And there's a principle in physics called Poiseuille's law. And it shows that the resistance of any fluid through a tube decreases when you, of course, when you widen the tube. In fact, it decreases by a fourth power of the radius, which means if you widen the blood vessels just a teeny tiny bit, you get a tremendous reduction in resistance and blood flow. This is huge because what's one of the leading causes of death, it's, you know, heart attack and cardiovascular disease. Yeah, yeah. And people's, you know, the clogging of their arteries. And so if you can get just a little bit of widening, again, that fourth power, the radius of the artery of the fourth power, just a little tiny bit of increase and it creates a tremendous reduction in resistance. And when I say reduction in resistance, that means the blood can just flow easier. And, but PEMF also helps to lower the viscosity of the blood to make it wetter in a sense, quote unquote. So it makes, it's because people with, that have like typically like diabetes is a good example, you know, because they have all that sugar in their blood. Their blood's like maple syrup. It's like really sticky, high viscosity blood, which is like not what you want. Because you want your blood to flow nice and easy. And so they end up having to take like blood thinners, but that's, PEMF is a natural energetic blood thinner in a sense. So, so nitric oxide is huge. In 1992, it was the molecule of the year. It got like Time magazine's molecule of the year. And there were Nobel, three researchers in nitric oxide won the Nobel prize for its discovery for these enhancing effects. And, you know, things like Viagra, you know, if you know this, but Viagra was initially developed as a heart medication to increase nitric oxide. So, you know, nitroglycerin and so even, even our big pharma, they know nitric oxide. If they can somehow increase nitric oxide, they're going to help our heart health and our cardiovascular system. And, and down at the cellular level, there are some mechanisms like Arthur Pillow was one of the ones that studied this very well. It's, this is a very well detailed mechanism how PEMF works. And it's the calcium, calmodulin, nitric oxide synthase pathway. So essentially they found PEMF and stimulates the endoplasmic reticulum to release calcium. And then PEMF will help calcium to bind to calmodulin and through a kind of a complex set of reactions, it stimulates cyclic GMP that then goes to like, it's a messenger molecule or a signaling molecule, which you mentioned maybe you've talked about. And then it helps the, that to tell the DNA to upregulate, say anti-inflammatory cytokines downregulate inflammatory. And, but in this whole process, nitric oxide is released as well. So you get like a generation of nitric oxide from a PEMF stimulation, but you've got all these other benefits happening concurrently too. So there's many ways, I mean, we know PEMF increases nitric oxide and there's some proposed mechanisms, but it's probably not still 100% understood, but you can certainly see you put PEMF into someone's body, nitric oxide comes out. Like, I mean, you know, so it's seen, it's definitely creating, it's stimulating nitric oxide production, the good nitric oxide.

Andy Smith 27:01 
Yeah, no, good. And it would be cool to see some studies, you know, measuring those and we can link some of those, um, on, on the bottom of this episode. So, um, another area we wanted to talk to you about, cause, um, it's, it's an area that you've done some videos on and, and, you know, quite, um, quite more hard hitting ones is, is the Alibaba and the kind of multi-therapy mats that we, we talk about. And we've mentioned them on the podcast before, because, you know, um, I always kind of say that no PEMF mat is, is, you know, is, is worse than not, you know, than investing in something. But, um, there are some brands where you don't get as much as, you know, bang for your buck than, you know, you can get. So, uh, we've done podcasts on it. You've done videos on it. Um, you go quite into detail on these, um, maybe not the best examples of PEMF. Um, so, you know, what are your views on these multi-therapy mats? Um, you know, considering at the moment, they're probably the most maftive mat.

Bryant Meyers 27:57 
Yeah, I have some very strong opinions on it. So the good news is I don't even have to mention, I do not have to mention any brand names because they're very easy to identify. And so I tell people, if a PEMF mat has crystals or gemstones in it, it's pretty much garbage. I mean, and it's not that there's anything wrong with crystals or gemstones, it's just there's no good PEMF devices that use crystals or gemstones or claim negative ions or all these gimmicks. They're just gimmicks. And the reason I can speak so strongly on this is I have 12 of these mats, I've dissected them. And I thought maybe one of them would break the mold. I mean, you know, like these are the coils inside. I mean, just everything about, these are one of the mats you really do wanna avoid. I mean, I wouldn't use one of these if someone gave it to me for free. But in general, you're right. If you have any PEMF device with an actual signal generator, that's not just pulsing 60 hertz from the wall. You know, you're gonna get some benefit. But how can you get benefit from any of these gemstone mats? Again, it's very simple. And unfortunately, these are the most aggressively marketed mats right now. And sadly, they're probably the best selling mats, even though they're, I hate to use the word PEMF, to me they're EMF mats. As they're, it's 60 hertz, how can you call that? I mean, it is PEMF technically, but it's coming, or in your country, it's 50 hertz. Yeah, yeah. But so there's no signal generator. You understand their frequency, what they call frequency is just the repetition rate. They're just chopping up the 60 hertz at different repetition rates. So on every single setting, on every single one of these mats, you just see on an oscilloscope, you just see a 60 hertz carrier wave. It's 60 hertz everywhere.

Andy Smith 29:51 
So that's what i think you refer to it as is it dirty electricity or some on some people.

Bryant Meyers 29:55 
There's two components to it. Electrosmog is by Magna Habas, a worldwide leader in electrosmog research. And she breaks it down into actually four different subdivisions. So one is just 60 or 50 hertz. Just by itself, 60 hertz, for example, suppresses melatonin. There's actually three studies on that I've found. And 60 hertz by itself is an electrosmog. It's not a good frequency to be putting into the body. Even if you had a signal generator that generated a clean 60 hertz, that's not good. You don't want to use 60 hertz, a 60-hertz sine wave. But now, piggybacking on that is what's called dirty electricity. So dirty electricity comes in part from the power company. About 30% of it comes into your house from the power company and traveling along the way. But most of the dirty electricity is coming from your household appliances. And things like Tesla, especially Tesla chargers and solar panels, are really bad culprits. But any electrical dimmer switches, what they're doing is a lot of these modern electronics and even big heavy appliances are putting into your circuit higher frequencies. Because a lot of the circuits are pulsing the 60 hertz to try to get more, I'm not an electrical engineer, but there's reasons why they're taking the 60 and they're trying to pulse it at really high frequencies. And that gets, unfortunately, reintroduced into your circuit. So you do want to test your house, if you can, using a tri-field meter or like a cornet, or I have a couple other meters, too. You can go around and actually get some filters, too. You can test their, actually, dirty electricity you test with either a Stetzer meter or a green wave or this guy, BD, a static shield's got a good meter. You basically plug it into the wall and it will tell you a relative number on how much dirty electricity you have. And then you can apply filters to lower that, right? So the problem with these mats is, because they're just taking 60 hertz from the wall, in the electric field, now the magnetic field, this is a really high induction coil. And so you're not gonna get much dirty electricity in the magnetic field component because the high induction kind of smooths it out. But in the electric field component, and the problem with those mats is they're recommending you sleep on them. Like, oh yeah, you can just sleep on it all night. So the thing about dirty electricity and 60 hertz, it's potentially carcinogenic. And I have a page where I've linked off 60 studies on the harmful effects of dirty electricity and 60 hertz. So this is not just my opinion. There's very good research. Now, it's not a subtle science because correlation isn't necessarily causation. But there are very good correlation studies with leukemia and 60 hertz and dirty electricity and other types of cancers. In fact, there was a study with electric blankets. People sleeping with electric blankets all night. They're getting 60 hertz and dirty electricity right next to them, right? There was a link to cancer with it. But again, it was a correlation. It's like, well, that's not causation, but it's still a very high, you know, it's like a low P value. I mean, it's got a very high statistical significance in the correlation. So this is why I'm so against these mats. It's because I don't have anything against the companies. And, you know, gemstones are harmless enough. There's nothing, they're not gonna create negative ions. And that's provable fact. So, I mean, we can go into it at all. I mean, there's just nothing about these mats that's any good. And it's good that we're talking about it because I do many phone consultations every day. And these mats, again, I won't name names, but there's especially a couple brands that are really heavily promoting. And people are like, oh yeah, I got this mat. What do you think? It's like, oh no. I say, send it back for a refund if you can. Or don't buy it, of course, if you're looking to get it. And the reason people are getting scammed by these mats is that they're a lower price. And like you said, they're claiming all these therapies. It's like, you know, we got red light therapy, negative ions, far infrared, PEMF all in one. Look, they only got PEMF over there. You know, it's like, so it sounds, and they use that in clever and very aggressive and very, I mean, and to give them credit, they have very good marketing. But they're marketing stuff that you can get in Alibaba for under a hundred dollars or around a hundred. I got a popular brand for a hundred and nine dollars, same green, same black mat, same green stitching. You know, it just had a black top instead of the logo of the mat. It's a very heavily, a hundred and nine dollars, same three coils, same four frequency settings on the oscilloscope, it looked the same, but one was 1200 and one was 109. So it just shows you how cheap they are.

Andy Smith 35:03 
I think they're all gonna price each other out on the market eventually as well cuz as you say like you know we actually see a new brand of that same my kind of pop up every other day so.

Bryant Meyers 35:15 
Yeah, I mean, sauna companies and red light, I couldn't believe it, Alex Fergus, a trusted red light influencer, is recommending one of these mats. It's like, you know, so they might understand red light therapy well or infrared or sauna therapy, but they clearly don't understand PEMF if they're promoting these.

Andy Smith 35:34 
But then the red lights on those as well. I mean, I think you've measured the irradiance, having you on those. So even that's.

Bryant Meyers 35:40 
Well, that's the thing. There's nothing about those mats that's any good. So the irradiance is well below 5 milliwatts per centimeter squared. And Michael Hamblin in good photobiomodulation research says you need at least 5 milliwatts to be effective. Less than that, it's pretty much just Christmas tree lights. And I did an experiment where I bought Amazon Christmas tree lights. And I have a $2,000 spectroradiometer, because again, I do red light therapy, so I wrote a book on red light therapy too. I know a lot about that.

Andy Smith 36:11 
Hmm

Bryant Meyers 36:12 
So I know how to properly measure light. You don't use a solar meter. You have to use a spectroradiometer. And this is what some of these companies, they get their solar meter, and it looks like they got more irradiance than they do. Solar meters are for measuring the sun that's 93 million miles away. They're not meant for measuring LEDs. Well, that's another story. But essentially, when I got the Christmas tree lights in a popular PEMF brand that has red light, the irradiance of the Christmas tree lights was around one milliwatt per centimeter squared. The irradiance of these bulbs was like 1.3. It was barely better than a Christmas tree light. I mean, it's just decoration. Yeah, yeah. So, and then the area, when you take a ruler and you measure the area of the bulbs, because there's only a handful of these LEDs, it ends up being like almost a little bigger than the size of your thumb. I mean, so you're not getting much red light anyway, not much coverage. It's a very low area. Yeah. So you're not getting red light therapy from any of those mats. And I know all of, I mean, at least all the popular ones, like you said, they're coming up one a month, just about now. Yeah. So I can't keep up with them, but all the ones I've tested have a really, really low irradiance. And again, they claim negative ions. I have a $500 negative ion counter. There's zero negative ions in those mats. That's a scam. Yeah. In fact, I talked to Dr. Bill Lee at Alpha Labs. Alpha Labs makes a really good negative ion counter. And it's funny. One of these popular companies used his ion counter to somehow show negative ions. And I'm like, does he have a negative ion generated going in the background or something? Cause I called Dr. Bill Lee and he's the owner slash chief engineer of Alpha Labs. He's got a PhD in super conductivity. Okay. He got so tired of people buying his meter for these mats. Cause they would, people that had these mats would buy his meter to try to show people that got negative ions, but they're like, why are we getting zero? So he got, so it's like, you don't get negative ions from crystals. So he did his own, he got, so he did his own test. He heated up crystals and he found that he got negative ions at 1100 degrees. You literally had to keep turning up the heat. So at a certain point at 11, but then you got positive ions too.

Andy Smith 38:29 
Mm.

Bryant Meyers 38:30 
So you get both negative and positive are like from forced air heat and air conditioning. You don't want the positive ions. Those are the free radicals, right? So you get both, but you get barely any at all. Yeah, yeah. But again, of course, you can't lay on a 1100 degree mat. That's like half the temperature of lava. I mean, you'd use, so it's just a scam. So even the far infrared uses silicone wire, which I found on Alibaba for 10 cents a meter. And I measured a popular mat. They had 18 meters. That's a $1.80 in heating elements. Yeah, yeah. I did an inventory. These coils on Alibaba, you can get these for like a couple dollars. I mean, I did like an inventory of how much these mats cost. And when you add up all the crystals, $3.50 a kilo, you can get those crystals. They're not good crystals. I mean, there is something to gemstone therapy, but you have to get high clarity. Well cut stones. You can't just get these. What they use is just, yeah, I mean, it's the lowest quality, but the worst part of it is the PEMF. And these are not good coils, by the way. These high induction coils kind of suck the PEMF energy right into the coil. So it just, the PEMF drops off a cliff, so you get all these big dead spots in the mat. Yeah, yeah. Of course, it's probably for the best because it's just 60 Hertz, but you know, I mean, you want like, you know, nice circular coils or, I mean, you know, this is how this is a better way to, because you're, you know, the flux is going through the middle into the body. Yeah. It's going kind of, it's kind of going sideways around and you get this hot, you do get a hotspot right on top of it. But then you get all this dead space in between. So it's just, there's nothing about those mats and they're the top sellers, sadly. So I just do my best to try to steer people. First, when I do a consultation, I literally have to steer them away from those mats. Step one. Yeah. Almost everybody is seeing ads for them.

Andy Smith 40:30 
That's the thing. And like you say, you know, I also the same, you know, I don't hold anything against the owners. Those companies I've met a lot of them have spoken to a lot of them. I think it's naivety a lot of the time, you know, that and they also seem to produce lots of different things. So it's not just PEMF. They have sauna blankets. They have step in saunas, you know, and they're getting them all off of Alibaba. And, you know, they might think that that's a good source of therapy devices. But, you know, in in, you know, like you say, in terms of it, it's it's it's not. You know, we know.

Bryant Meyers 41:01 
It's not. No, it's not. And even there's sauna blankets to me. I mean, those I won't get it. We won't get into that. But it's like a lot of that stuff. You can literally get the same ones in Alibaba for a fraction of the price, but they're not high quality.

Andy Smith 41:15 
Yeah.

Bryant Meyers 41:16 
I mean, the same problem for the dirty electricity and the electric field component on some of those. I mean, you just have to, you really do get what you pay for. I mean, not that you have to spend, like, you know, I have the Pulse XL, like, which is a super expensive, you know, $40,000. You don't have to spend $40,000 on a PEMF device. But I mean, you do, in general, kind of get what you pay for. So I haven't found, honestly, a whole lot of PEMF devices, full body mat devices, under $2,000 that I can really get behind anymore. Yeah, yeah. I wish I could. I mean, there's a couple, I mean, if people are like, well, I'm just not gonna spend more than 2,000, I, you know, I have one brand that I reluctantly affiliate for, but it's not my first choice. I try to tell people to save up for quality, which you can, I thought you can get from, you know, 3,000 to 4,000, you can, there's really good options in starting at 3,000, kind of in that range. You don't have, I mean, but you do kind of need to spend a little bit to get quality.

Andy Smith 42:18 
And we mentioned that before on the, you know, on this podcast that these, the PEMF system is specifically, you know, they, they cost a bit of money to produce. There's a lot of copper in them. You know, you got to get big, decent coils that give you good coverage and all that sort of thing. So if you buy cheap in the PEMF industry, usually you buy twice. So, you know, it's, um,

Bryant Meyers 42:36 
You buy cheap, it's a saying, you buy cheap, you buy twice. I mean, that's a good, I use that myself actually because in the case of these, and you also waste your time. Life is too precious to be wasting time with cheap, ineffective Chinese garbage. I mean, I'm not saying everything from Alibaba is bad, but I've had, I mean, again, with the red light beds, we got beds from China initially because I work with a red light bed company and it was a disaster, just an absolute disaster. So, I mean, my experience with China is not a, I mean, energy medicine wise. I would, I just have to, I've come to a point where I tell people, try to avoid getting energy medicine products from China because just based on my sample size of China, I mean, it's not good experience that I've had.

Andy Smith 43:20 
No, for sure. So you mentioned them slew rate earlier in the podcast, um, something I want to touch on because you've also shown some of the different coils and all that sort of thing and how they kind of, uh, work so.

Bryant Meyers 43:31 
Yeah.

Andy Smith 43:32 
What slew rate and how is that important in terms of PEMF therapy?

Bryant Meyers 43:36 
Well, I mean, it's probably the most important thing, along with, you could say you can make a case for magnetic resonance also as another possible mechanism. But when you look at, say, just wireless chargers, like this little, this is like a little phone charger. In fact, if you've got like a MagSafe charger, like by Apple, because there's basically a little mini PEMF coil inside here. So the only two ways that you can use a magnetic field to wirelessly transfer energy is inductive coupling, which is what slew rate comes in, and magnetic or resonant inductive coupling, which is resonance. So, but the thing about slew rate is it's a much more clear, straightforward understanding of how it works. Because it's basically a hot, you're basically using a magnetic field through Faraday's law to induce an electric field that then in the presence of a conductor, like copper or your body, will create an electrical current.

Andy Smith 44:36 
Mm-hmm.

Bryant Meyers 44:36 
or a microcurrent in your body, it's just very microcurrent. So with resonant inductive coupling, it gets more complicated because you have to look at the Q factor of all the different resonances of all the different tissues and organs. And Q factor is just like on a radio transmitter receiver. It's the frequency that a circuit is tuned to. So the higher the Q factor, the better the resonance effects. But then you've got to be very specific with your frequency.

Andy Smith 45:08 
Mm hmm. So the problem with that approach is, you know, obviously we don't really know, even though there are good studies to show all the different frequencies in the human body, this is the problem also with sine wave systems, is that a sine wave is only one frequency at a time. So you've got to do this, if you're trying to do this frequency for the muscle, then you've got to do this frequency for this, and then we don't even know, you know, there's not any well understood, because, you know, molecular reactions can have resonant frequencies, you know, the organelles, the cells, the tissues, the organs. So really, to me, the only really way to do that is to try to get a broad spectrum, like a multi-wave oscillator approach, where you're getting all the frequencies at once, like a good multivitamin, like Wieckowski talked about with this multi-wave oscillator, right? So if you introduce all the different resonances at the same time, in theory, you can resonate with all the different. But slew rate's a little more straightforward, because in effect, it does, first of all, it'll ring all the different cells and tissues to their natural resonant frequency. So because you're kind of, it's kind of like a, kind of just banging, so you can get that resonant effect even with a high slew rate signal, in fact, the square wave, the sharper the rise time on that square wave, typically through Fourier mathematics, means you're going to have a broader spectrum of frequency. So it turns out you get the best of both worlds with the square wave, which is, if, when you understand that slew rate is how quickly, well, let me just back up here, I mean, it's probably helpful to explain how PEMFs are created. So I mean, you know, basically, AMP's law says, if you have a current going through a wire, there's a magnetic field that circulates around the wire. So a current creates a magnetic field. All right, now, if we wrap that wire into a loop or a solenoid, all the field lines reinforce in the middle and you get basically a bar magnet, the same magnetic field as a bar magnet, especially with a long solenoid. So now we know magnetic therapy is good, just even static magnets, but PEMFs work better as the Eastern European study showed. But now what we can do with electrical circuit and having the right electronics, unlike static magnets, now we can get this magnetic field to vibrate and ripple in different complex ways. And it turns out the faster you can vibrate the field, the more energy is this is Faraday's law of induction. Faraday's law says so we got Ampere's law creates a magnetic field from a current, you know, in a wire and we wrap it into a loop and we get a nice magnetic field just like a bar magnet. And it is important to understand that these are closed loop magnetic fields, so they're not radiating away to the frequencies in your magnetic field. You can't really I've heard people just incorrectly try to relate it to like, oh, 10 Hertz is a is a low ELF. It'll be the wavelength would be miles and miles long, which is not incorrect if you have a radiating field. But but here, the 10 Hertz would be vibrating. They'd be five, 10 vibrations a second in the field. It's not it's not an electromagnetic wave. We're not radiating fields away unless you get high intensity and high frequency, then you can get some radiation fields going. That's the radiation formula. But but essentially slew rate is saying the faster you change the magnetic field, the more current you induce in a conductive medium that's nearby. So so if we're if we're trying as Arthur Pilla, as they initially did with the original bone stimulator to to create microcurrents noninvasively, the higher the slew rate, which is how quickly the magnetic it's measured in dB, DT, which is Tesla per second. So the faster the slew rate, the more Tesla per second you get. And it's like the slope of the, like, if you take a square wave, you're never going to get a perfect square wave. It's going to be a trapezoid, right? Because you can't have an infinitely fast rise time. So it's just a theoretical. I mean, so a square wave, we're typically talking about trapezoid or other. Sometimes it comes through as, like with Robert Dennis's, it's almost like a sawtooth. But it's that fast rising edge that you want. Yeah. OK. And it can even even be an impulse, you know, where you just got this impulse of just fast rising magnetic field. So but it seems a square wave works better than an impulse because you have a better pulse duration. But it's essentially an impulse is just a square wave with a very short pulse duration, right? And the NASA study showed that the square wave was working the best for neuronal stem cell production. It looked at triangle waves. It looked at sine waves. It looked at sawtooth. And the square wave even beat the impulse. But so slew rate is, I think, and I've done a couple of videos on this, I think it's probably the most important parameter. And we should be combining PEMF or comparing PEMF devices by their slew rate, not by intensity. Intensity has nothing to do with, well, in the sense of its relationship to rise time. But intensity alone is not how energy is transferred wirelessly. And again, what is a PEMF device? It's a whole body like charging plate. I mean, your body is laying on just like your phone is on a charging plate with little tiny PEMF coils with now, again, they use higher frequencies. But it's the same principle. It's wireless energy transfer through Faraday's law of induction. The slew rate is even how your phone is getting charged. The higher the slew rate, the better the charging. So it's very straightforward physics. And I don't understand why people are still talking about intensity so much. It's like, oh, how many Gauss does your device have? It's not about the Gauss. I mean, it's about what is the Tesla per second? Or you can say the Gauss per second.

Andy Smith 51:10 
Yeah, I think we need to find a, um, uh, a nominal value or way of showing slew rate better in the market. I think that's the best because at the moment people just have this number of gals and that's what they're comparing devices to. So.

Bryant Meyers 51:26 
Well, right, and you actually do have to know the peak Gauss to calculate slew rates. So essentially you get an oscilloscope and like this is a quantum effect like probe, quantum Hall effect, right? So the Hall effect probes are basically, you have to, it's hard to measure the peak intensity of a very fast changing magnetic field. You can't just use a Gauss meter. I've seen some people incorrectly use Gauss meters. You're not gonna get an accurate value that way. Yeah. No, but you gotta get a Hall effect probe that has a sensitivity to whatever, because if the faster the rise time, the harder it is to measure.

Andy Smith 52:04 
Mm.

Bryant Meyers 52:04 
But obviously, that's what we want. But essentially, you're looking on an oscilloscope, and you're finding the peak intensity. And then you zoom in the window to see, you can kind of see how quickly you go from the bottom of the pulse to the top, and that's going to be your rise time. So it's rise over run. So it's the intensity, the peak intensity, divided by the rise time, which you have to use an oscilloscope to get this. And you can get a pretty good value. I mean, it's going to be plus or minus a little delta error. But you can get a pretty good number on what the slew rate is. But it would be nice. I'd love it if an engineer could find a way just to have a meter. But they'd have to have a very sensitive, not as easy as you might think.

Andy Smith 52:55 
I think the market needs release to be able to put that number to a device.

Bryant Meyers 53:00 
Yeah, I mean, I think I'm not an engineer, but it seems to me it's doable to maybe make it make a little handheld device. It tells you what the Tesla per second is about the signal. Um, you know, but but unfortunately, there is no such device and I've looked, there is one that I've been able to find. You have to get an oscilloscope. You have to get a sensitive. Um, you know, quantum effect or quantum Hall probe and even Robert Dennis's studies on on when he puts his signal in a slew rate. He uses a quantum Hall probe as well. And, you know, and so in published studies on slew rate, that's that's what you got to do. Um, and so, unfortunately, almost no companies list slew rate. Except for, I mean, Robert Dennis does in his Isis. Yeah, but.

Andy Smith 53:47 
And for the benefit of our listeners, you know, we had Dr. Robert Dennis on podcast few episodes back. So if you want to, you know, we've mentioned him a few times. So if you want to reel back and listen to that one, then, you know, you can, you can understand what we're talking about. And it's good that you mentioned all see the square wave too, because it seems to be quite a common feature with these podcasts is that square wave seems to be coming out as, you know, the best one, the most effective one. So it's good that you mentioned that and brought that in there. One other thing that you're quite vocal about online is how other experts in the PEMF industry, you kind of alluded to this person before, uses the inverse square law when it comes to PEMS. You refer to it as the inverse square flaw. Can you briefly describe to our listeners firstly, what the inverse square law is? And why in your opinion, the other persons kind of made some inaccurate calculations around this?

Bryant Meyers 54:37 
Yeah, and the thing is is this is not even an opinion because it's just he's just wrong I mean and he's been pointed that even Robert Dennis's point He told me pointed this out to him because I had a conversation with Robert Dennis about it Well again, we don't have to name names here. I mean Robert Dennis is fine. I'm just saying deal this other person. Yeah But he's you know, he's a leading expert in PEMF Unfortunately, he's kind of the one that people think is the main PEMF guy and he's recommending high intensity because of the university And it's like people people are like Brian. So what he is the inverse square law It's like well his book on PEMF half of it if his recommendations are based on the inverse square law And and they and it's giving you intensities that are literally up to a hundred times greater than what they need to be Even if you follow his own advice because he's really big on this Masari Varani study on Inflammation where you try you need to get 15 Gauss or 1.5 millitesla into the tissue, right? Mm-hmm, so he says okay to get 1.5 millitesla It's a into the middle of your brain that you got to get six inches in so based on the inverse square law I'm gonna recommend you get a device at 6,000 Gauss But when you use the the Biot-Savart law, which is the correct equation Again, depending on this it depends on the size of the coil. This is the big problem But the inverse square law assumes a point source So I tell people listen if you don't understand my video and how I'm trying to debug him Can you just understand that PEMF coils are not all point sources? This is not a point source clearly. Yeah a Point source is a speck of dust

Andy Smith 56:13 
Mm-hmm.

Bryant Meyers 56:15 
You know, so he's basically saying, now I have a coil here that is 1.6 inch diameter. Now it turns out Dr. Pollack's tables are not too far off for this coil.

Andy Smith 56:31 
Yeah.

Bryant Meyers 56:32 
Okay, but now when I get, let me get this right here, I mean, I don't mean some of your some of your listeners aren't going to be able to see it because it's a podcast, but but just just imagine a 1.6 diameter coil versus a 10.5 inch diameter coil. I did a test with my quantum Hall probe and I did the Bios of art law calculations. Okay. This is the test to debunk it once and for all. I'm going to put this into a video here soon. I did it before, but I almost need to do a separate video because it's so definitively debunks it. So at 5 inches away, just to give the just the short version. This coil or the 10.5 inch coil at 5 inches away. If we have the same surface intensity, let's assume this is 100 micro Tesla. This is 100 micro Tesla at 5 inches away. This loop is 100 times more intensity than this loop.

Andy Smith 57:26 
Uh-huh.

Bryant Meyers 57:27 
Okay, now according to Dr. Pollack, they're gonna all drop off the same.

Andy Smith 57:32 
Yeah.

Bryant Meyers 57:33 
That all coils are the same. Everyone drops off by the inverse square law. But see, the Biot-Savart law, and doesn't it make sense that the size of the coil would matter here? And because to create a magnetic field in a large coil, you need more current to create the same intensity because the flux is greater.

Andy Smith 57:50 
Mmm.

Bryant Meyers 57:52 
So you can think of the energy in a coil around a PEMF coil. It's more related to the flux, which is area times intensity. So area times intensity, roughly. It's an integral. You've got to integrate, but just it's a rough approximation. So this, and I calculate the penetration depth. I use the Biot-Savart law, and it's 0.97r. It's about r. So the penetration depth is a 1 over e. That's where the surface intensity becomes 37%. And 1 over e is about 37. So it turns out it's like a dome. It's just take whatever coil you have and just turn it into a hemisphere, almost like you're making a sphere out of it. So that's the penetration depth. So a bigger coil is going to have a much bigger dome of energy, a much bigger dome of energy. The radius is going to be up here, or here. It's way down here. And that's the penetration depth. So you can see that with a bigger coil, your penetration depth is way much higher up versus the smaller coil. It's not nearly as much. And again, in my Biot-Savart law, calculations were only within 4% to 5% off. I was actually surprised at how accurate that the Biot-Savart law is. It was almost where Dr. Pollack's numbers for the big coil at 5 inches away were 7,100% off, 71 times. So he was recommending for a 10.5 inch coil intensities that are 72 or 71 times higher than they need to be.

Andy Smith 59:27 
Mm.

Bryant Meyers 59:28 
So it's a scam. I mean, he's promoting high intensity for no good reason, and it's not even about intensity anyway. It's about the slew rate. That's how, you know, at your power company, they don't have big static magnets sitting on sides of a big wire to send power to your house. No, it's rotating electromagnets, sometimes rotating static magnets, but you have to get the magnetic field in motion, which is slew rate, to create power to your house.

Andy Smith 59:56 
Yeah, yeah.

Bryant Meyers 59:57 
Magnetic Gauss, I tell people, Gauss or Tesla, magnetic field intensity is used for measuring static magnets.

Andy Smith 01:00:04 
Mmm.

Bryant Meyers 01:00:05 
It's not what you should measure PEMF with. Yeah, yeah. So the Gauss equivalent for PEMF for a changing magnetic field is slew rate.

Andy Smith 01:00:12 
Mm-hmm.

Bryant Meyers 01:00:14 
That's what matters, not intensity. Because that's how energy, and just to show you how ridiculous it is, the Assisi loop, which is an FDA approved, they have an FDA approved human version, they have a four microtesla intensity, and they can get a slew rate of up to 10 tesla per second, which is really kind of amazing, but they do that with a 27 megahertz carrier. So it turns out that the sharp, the sharp steep slope of a good square wave comes from the high frequency. So you do need some higher frequencies.

Andy Smith 01:00:47 
Yeah, yeah.

Bryant Meyers 01:00:48 
But to me, to bake the perfect square wave, you want a nice combination of frequencies that aren't too high. Because within nature, you do get 30,000 to even 100,000 hertz around lightning strikes, the spherics, and the whistlers, and the tweets. Now, unfortunately, the megahertz is radio frequencies. That's not found in nature. Robert Beckard was one of the first ones in cross-currents to really point this out, that these non-native or unhealthy electromagnetic fields that are not natural are not good for us. And they're not good for us because they're not natural. Our bodies have not evolved with them. So I'm kind of against, there's some PEMF devices on the market that are using higher frequencies. So I'm also against using ridiculously high intensity for daily home use. Yeah, yeah. Again, it may have a place in a clinical setting for like analgesic and range of motion. Because it does seem to work really well for that. Yeah, yeah.

Andy Smith 01:01:45 
Yeah.

Bryant Meyers 01:01:46 
But for home use, you want more of a medium range intensity. And again, where are most PEMF studies at? 1 to 10 millitesla. So that's middle of the road. It's not super low. It's not super high. But most PEMF studies, based on this big meta-analysis of 3,200 studies, 75% of the PEMF studies were between 1 and 10 millitesla, which is 10 to 100 gauss. So high intensities were only 2% to 3% of the studies. And a lot of those were transcranial magnetic stimulation, which is for psychiatry. That's not even what we're getting PEMF for anyway, or most of us. So it's just unfortunate because these high intensity systems end up being very expensive too. And this is why the inverse square flaw is such a big flaw is because all of his recommendations are based on it.

Andy Smith 01:02:40 
Mm-hmm.

Bryant Meyers 01:02:41 
I mean, like I said, his recent book, half of it has over 30 recommendations based on the inverse square law. If you use the right equation, again, I don't have a problem with him using the Masari study for like 1.5 millitesla. I don't know if you're familiar with that study, but he quotes it a lot if you listen to his podcast. He's constantly showing the graph, and at 1.5 millitesla, you get a saturation. So the funny thing is about that study is when you look at the I-1 that they used in the study, which I did, look, I read the study, and I contacted I-1, I figured out, I found out their slew rate is about 3 to 4 tesla per second, which isn't great, really. But their thing that they used on the knee had 1.5 millitesla at the surface.

Andy Smith 01:03:30 
Mm hmm.

Bryant Meyers 01:03:31 
And here Dr. Pollack is saying you've got to get 1.5 millitestal into whatever tissue you're trying to target.

Andy Smith 01:03:36 
Yeah, yeah.

Bryant Meyers 01:03:38 
The very study he's quoting didn't do that.

Andy Smith 01:03:41 
Uh-huh.

Bryant Meyers 01:03:42 
You understand what I'm saying? It's like the very study he used, they used just 15 Gauss PEMF.

Andy Smith 01:03:49 
Hmm.

Bryant Meyers 01:03:51 
So he's saying you've got to get 15 gauss to wherever your target tissue is based on the inverse square law. So and again, the reason I say this is that all of his recommendations are based on this magical 15. For him, it's like his magical number, 15 gauss. Because I get his reasoning, right?

Because if this study shows that 15 gauss can lower inflammation, then through the A2A receptor pathway, which is another thing to talk about, that we should use PMS signals that are that intensity. To me, it's the slew rate that was the key, not the intensity. But even if you're going to go by intensity, they had it at the surface. And of course, the inverse square law is not the way to calculate it anyway. So it's just I have a page on my PEMFT.net site where I've got like 20 of his errors. I mean, it's not just one or two mistakes he's made. It's just this long list of errors. And he's just misleading people with bad science.

Andy Smith 01:04:48 
Are our listeners in terms of the magnetic range like we talk about the intensity and that sort of thing and the inverse square law, are they able to give a rough estimation of the range of their mat using an AM frequency radio, so we've seen people doing this in the past. You can hear the clicking and you can move it away from the mat and it gets it gets further away is that is that a good way of you know anyone at home.

Bryant Meyers 01:05:13 
I've got a couple little meters and even a tri-field meter, you can make it audible on the mag setting and you can hear the field. And typically, even above a lower intensity, Matt, you can see it. You can still hear it like two to three feet up. Yeah, yeah, that's not going to give you a good, there's no accurate intensity readings from those, right? No, no, no, just just to give someone an idea of.

Andy Smith 01:05:34 
the range of because as you say like you know using the inverse square law that's put out there we you know a lot of them will say that it drops off after a centimeter two centimeters you know you're almost getting nothing but using just using something as simple as an AM frequency radio you can kind of give yourself an estimation of the the range of that PEMF mat is that

Bryant Meyers 01:05:55 
Oh yeah, I mean, there's just all kinds of little things. I mean, I have a couple little ones I use for demonstration. I got a MiG-MiG handy that makes it, back in the early days with the IMRS, we got the MiG-MiG handy. We would do demonstrations, and we could put it like three feet above someone and show that the magnetic field was still there very measurably, right?

Yeah, yeah. So if it was the inverse square law, you wouldn't hear anything, which of course is not the inverse square law, but I'm just saying if it was, you wouldn't get any, you wouldn't hear anything. So that's, in fact, Justin at Extreme Health Radio, when I was on his podcast, he had this expert on his podcast, and then I called him and listened to it. I'm like, and then we did another podcast, and then we went to the inverse square law. And I sent him an IMRS mat, I mean, because he had done a lot to help me promote at the time. And he had a trifield meter. He put his wife Kate on it, and he got his trifield meter, and I told him, put it like three feet up. He's like, Brian, you're right. The needle's still bobbing, even three feet up. And he's like, why is Dr. Pollack saying this? Oh, I'm sorry, I said his name. I didn't mean to say his name, but that's what he said. That's what he told me. He's like, why is he saying this stuff? And I'm like, well, you gotta ask him, because he's been pointed this out. Even Robert Dennis told me he pointed it out to him, and he's too stubborn, he won't change. And this is doing the whole industry a disservice because he's one of the leading spokespeople for PEMF. And he's just giving out bad information. It's just bad information. I mean, it's not even an opinion. I don't have a problem with someone like having a healthy debate over a topic where there's two legitimate sides to the debate, but it's the Biot-Savart law is the equation. You can't just say, you can't use the inverse square law when that's not the right equation. That's just wrong. That's not an opinion. That's not a wrong opinion. That's just a wrong, it's just flat out wrong. And again, I've done the tests. And again, when I did the calculations of the Biot-Savart law and I got such a close match to my quantum effect probe, I was like, I got goosebumps. I'm like, holy cow, math works. These laws of physics, you can measure, you can actually do an experiment and confirm these laws of physics.

Andy Smith 01:08:08 
Mm.

Bryant Meyers 01:08:08 
It really is the Biot–Savart law of I mean, of course, I knew it was but it's like to really see it with your own measurements It's like wow, like you feel like you're making a discovery, right?

Andy Smith 01:08:17 
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bryant Meyers 01:08:17 
And with the inverse square law being so ridiculously off of what I was actually measuring, which is the most accurate way to measure a magnetic field with this quantum effect probe, it just proves that what he's saying is wrong.

Andy Smith 01:08:33 
Mmhmm.

Bryant Meyers 01:08:34 
He's not wrong by a little, he's wrong by up to 10,000% with large coils. Yeah, yeah.

Andy Smith 01:08:39 
Yeah. No, it's interesting.

Bryant Meyers 01:08:40 
That's 100 times, that's a huge error. I mean, imagine trying to publish a paper with 100% error. I mean, I don't know, a 10,000% error. I mean, a 5%, typically they give you a plus or minus 5%, is the standard for studies. You wanna be within that p-value of under 0.05, which is 5%.

Andy Smith 01:09:03 
Mmhmm.

Bryant Meyers 01:09:03 
But so I don't get it, you know, and again, his book, along with my book, our two books are the two best selling PEMF books, and people are buying it and just they're just getting bad science. Now, he's got a lot of good information in the book outside of his recommendations, like the first half of the book, pretty good.

Andy Smith 01:09:21 
For those guys who want to take a deeper dive into this, you mentioned your book, I was next point really. So that's the PEMF, the fifth element of health. If somebody wants to get this, where can they obtain that book?

Bryant Meyers 01:09:31 
Yeah, just on Amazon. I mean just just type in. I mean my name Bryant Myers or just PEMF the fifth element of health If you search books for PEMF, my book comes up the first book, you know, it's either a minor dump You know back. Dr. Pollack's are the top two sellers So it's right there. It just comes right up at the top

Andy Smith 01:09:51 
So yeah, I mean, I'm going to wrap it up today. It's been amazing talking to you, but, um, where can people find you? Right. If someone wants to talk to someone wants to have, you know, a consultation or if they want to just pick your brain on something, then where's the best place to start?

Bryant Meyers 01:10:04 
Just bryantmyers.com, I mean, I do free phone consultations. You can just call my number, it's right on my website. Just my name, bryantmyers.com, B-R-Y-A-N-T-M-E-Y-E-R-S.com. And I do offer, for people in the market, I just ask that you're in the market for a device, I offer free phone consultations. So, please do reach out to me, I'm here to help. And I'm very passionate about PEMF, so I'm glad we're able to talk about some of these topics because so many people are getting deceived with marketing and not real science and not real research. Because if you look at the real science and the real research, you really wanna, well, look for a PEMF device that has the right coils, the right signal, which is high slew rate, broad spectral content. And we didn't talk about repetition rate. Repetition rate's also kind of important. But this is what's important. And you gotta just not listen to just marketing hype and all this bells and whistles and all this glitz and glitter. Look at what's most important based on research. And slew rate that we talked about, really, to me, along with the size and geometry of the coils, are the two most important things. Because the coils are also very, very important. To get that slew rate deep into the body and throughout the body, you have to have the right coil geometry and size, right? And you have to have the coils tuned properly with the signal. That's a whole nother talk, talk, but talk.

Andy Smith 01:11:33 
No worries. No, thank you so much for your time today, Brian. And to our listeners, thanks again for listening to another episode of the PEMF podcast. We'll leave some links under this podcast. So if you want the link to speak to Brian, we'll do that. And feel free to leave any questions under there and we'll get back to you as soon as we can and like and follow us so that we can get more guests on and encourage more people like Brian to come in and share their stories. Thanks again.

Bryant Meyers 01:11:55 
Wonderful, it was fun.